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Foggernaut modifications
Game Designer * Member Since 2012-05-03
posté June 21, 2013, 14:50:13 | #1
Foggernaut modifications Hi,

With GvG coming, we have to modify some specific points, and one of them is Stasis.

For now, we want to modify Stasis as follows:
  • Damage bonuses will be based on an average of all damages (critical and damage from back will count as damage all if the condition is fulfilled). The resistance used will always be the lowest one.
  • Stasis will have higher base damage compared to other spells.
  • The evolution curve will become as linear as the other elements.
  • Stasis will trigger all the effects linked to the resist it uses.

New damages:
  • Heart of Steam: 90 (addition of “no line of sight)
  • Ray of Stasis: 33
  • Stasis Shot: 50
  • Stasis Strike: 100
  • Aynaloxide: 125

The main point of this modification is to impact Stasis with resistance, in order to avoid having to destroy specific families’ mechanics.

I know that some of you might be disappointed by this change, but we simply cannot keep Stasis as it is currently.

Please let me know what you think.



Speechless Crobak * Member Since 2011-05-10
posté June 21, 2013, 15:01:40 | #2
First:
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Nerf stasis so hard :O


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté June 21, 2013, 15:10:36 | #3
Hmmm, what will the stasifyed stated do now? if you remove it note that a side effect of doing this makes critical synergy far less effective because we lose the ability to gain wp.

Also you will need to make sure the damage you usually get for adding spell levels actually does something.

And that the damage from microbot is considered.


Community Helper * Member Since 2005-08-28
posté June 21, 2013, 16:39:51 | #4

Quote (Grou @ 21 June 2013 14:50) *
1. The main point of this modification is to impact Stasis with resistance, in order to avoid having to destroy specific families’ mechanics.

2.I know that some of you might be disappointed by this change, but we simply cannot keep Stasis as it is currently.

Please let me know what you think.
1.
Defeats the whole point of stasis, no?
Could you give me multiple specific examples where Stasis destroys specific families mechanics.

Do you mean they actually are massively worthwhile at frigost? so you want to make them the same as all the other classes, you might as well remove foggers for the game then.

Lets take whisper cracklers for example Stasis can hit them first turn without any help and kill monsters. Other elemental classes debuff then kill the same monster on an almost equal timeframe.

2.
Just change how they work for the GvG make them a special except (nerf them up) otherwise my fogger will be too strong if that is what you are thinking.

My personal feeling on balancing is get out your calculator and in tactical aspect = balanced class yes it really is that easy.


This post has been edited by JerryDB - June 21, 2013, 16:48:47.
Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2012-12-20
posté June 21, 2013, 16:50:58 | #5
At this rate might as well remove stasis and give them a normal element(air/water). (so they can get 3 branches of resist like every other class)

Late game stasis foggers do as much if not less then a decently geared class.


Short Strich * Member Since 2006-07-14
posté June 21, 2013, 17:29:09 | #6
While foggers are actually useful for some end game content, they are not exactly game breaking. They are still underplayed for a reason. Your proposed changes to the stasis branch may make it so that foggers cannot simply go around monster mechanics, but they also make the stasis branch incredibly weak in comparison to how it is now. Yes, adding crit and backstab damage helps soften the blow, but it simply is not enough when you're nerfing the base damage and making it so that the newly nerfed damage has to go through resists. Even the lowest resist on many monsters is still quite high. You are taking an interesting mechanic that was fun without being overpowered and making it incredibly useless.

I urge you to change more about foggers before implementing any of these posted changes. These changes alone will actually get rid of the fogger's one enjoyable, if poorly supported, mechanic. At the very least, consider these points. As they are now, these changes are effectively eliminating an entire branch of spells from being at all viable. You may as well scrap the stasis idea entirely and give us an air or water branch.

A few more things:
1: "Damage bonuses will be based on an average of all damages": What exactly does that mean? An average of all of my other element bonuses? That could be interesting.
2: Microbot damage was already negligible. With the damage of Aynaloxide reduced it becomes about as useful as fogginator and salvage.


This post has been edited by -Shakespeare- - June 21, 2013, 17:38:40.
Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2010-12-19
posté June 21, 2013, 17:53:02 | #7
Why are the explanation always seem to be lacking in content, vague and unspecific.. Please show us which certain families' mechanics are you talking about and tell us exactly how the new damage formula for stasis will be calculated. Otherwise you are just going to be churning another damage formula in a few weeks because right now these proposed changes doesn't seem to be fair. Please explain this line: "Damage bonuses will be based on an average of all damages"

From my understanding of GRou's post, it seems that Fogger's should now be focusing on equipment that has "All Damages" bonus on them so that all elemental bonuses are raised.


This post has been edited by kendeekenken - June 21, 2013, 18:00:05.
Short Strich * Member Since 2006-07-14
posté June 21, 2013, 18:16:30 | #8

Quote (kendeekenken @ 21 June 2013 17:53) *
From my understanding of GRou's post, it seems that Fogger's should now be focusing on equipment that has "All Damages" bonus on them so that all elemental bonuses are raised.

I'm thinking that too. It is still a poor consolation prize, though. You barely break an average of 200% damage in an end game set focusing on "All Damages".


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2012-02-07
posté June 21, 2013, 18:42:06 | #9



Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2010-07-03
posté June 21, 2013, 20:41:40 | #10
Oh my GOSH !!!!!

Ankama you did it,you took poorest class in the game and making it even worse((
Shame,shame

and explanations are bad btw,i understood nothing of what you wrote about new mechanics so i cant say for sure what i think


This post has been edited by Satur0s - June 21, 2013, 20:54:20.
Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-04-05
posté June 21, 2013, 20:57:24 | #11
hmm, I think Ill just delete my lvl 120 and lvl any other class instead. Takes up way too much space.


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2012-10-19
posté June 21, 2013, 20:59:43 | #12
welp, there goes foggers only hope to survive, guess i can throw the idea of making one out the window.


Speechless Crobak * Member Since 2012-01-04
posté June 21, 2013, 21:17:04 | #13
Stasis Foggers were good for the Arena...

Then you decided to disable the Arena completely.


Stasis Foggers were good for UBs (for a few days, or maybe hours)..

Then you implement Stasis Resist on UBs.


Stasis Foggers were good for killing high resist mobs like the ones in Celestial Strich or any high level dungeon...

With the changes you're suggesting, Foggers are going to do even less damage than other classes with the currently available gear.


There are still so many things that make Foggers clunky at the moment:

-Linear Stasis spells
-Fogginator (extremely useless and KO's at the end of the turn instead of a proper KO turn count)
-Critical Turbo (If this was an AoE 2 units from the Fogger, it would be extremely useful in a group setting. Right now, due to the limitation of WP abilities the Fogger can use and the difficulty of gaining WP with Stasis abilities, this passive has really low usage)


In all honesty, why not just change the Fogger class to humans with Water-turrets? Just abolish the Stasis idea completely for now or make it a support skill that changes an elemental skill to Stasis damage for one turn.


The Sinister Six * Member Since 2012-03-19
posté June 21, 2013, 22:03:21 | #14
Edit: Now that the changes have arrived, I believe that it's not as bad as we thought. There are a few holes in the changes that prevent Stasis Foggernauts from making the most out of Stasis though, especially since Stasified is half broken (WP Steal still works). A few things still unclear as to whether they were intended or an error that needs to be corrected.


This post has been edited by Kohirond - August 09, 2013, 08:28:10.
Reason for edit : Post-Patch Thoughts
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2012-02-11
posté June 21, 2013, 22:20:04 | #15
omg really.first off as a stasis foggernaut it seems like your nerfing me for no reason but for gvg and reducing my damage by alot it basically feels like you made my foggernaut worthless and it was stupid of me to ever level one or even try to become one because now it was all for nothing.

now that ive gotten crying out of the way who is this to protect i mean not many classes are resistance heavy or focus that oh and god forbid we be good at getting past high resists mobs its not like it was the point of stasis or the whole reason for that branch.*still cries*

anyway i would like to know about some of these changes like the damage one im not sure what your saying and would like it to be more clear or give examples. also i guess that means i cant just focus on resists sets now which was wonderful i didnt have to worry about anything with damage or that negative damage doesnt effect me in anyway.

over all im very upset.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté June 21, 2013, 23:31:01 | #16
I would like to have some details with formula on how the damage of stasis spells will work exactly after this change.

If it will take the average of sum of masteries from Foggernaut then with 200% dmg in fire and 200% dmg in earth we will have 200% dmg on stasis too but only as long as we will also have water and air % of dmg at 200. IF we will have 0% water and 0% air while having even 300% fire and 300% earth, then the average will be 600/4 so in fact our stasis will be at 150% dmg ONLY. This is going to be a huge nerf as there is literally no good set that give us all elements at 400% to make Stasis viable.

Also i think you should rather change stasis spells of foggernaut into air ones and just make them apply stasified state or add mechanic that make them deal dmg throught enemy resist as if they were stasis spells. That way Foggernaut will at least gain as much resist as other classes, with leveling their spells.

While changing something in foggernaut i think you should also change other things:
Salvage - it should be cheaper by at least 1 AP to make people consider using it at all.
Fogginator - instead of making player KO, Foggernaut should loose % of HP each turn it last in Fogginator form. With help of Salvage spell it would be able to keep being in this state and not die but it will cost him the AP to place Microbot and the AP to use Salvage in order to not die. You could make Fogginator gain dmg% each turn while loosing HP each turn as well. This could work as Lone Sadida passive with the "loosing fuel" mechanic. Maybe the chance to trigger Fire and Oil while in Fogginator should be also increased.
Motherfogger - it should be impossible to get locked while in Motherfogger. This will give this spell a new reason to be used. Note though that rails can still be blocked if something stands on it. It will make Foggernaut gameplay more tactical and will allow better kiting with Motherfogger if nothing stands on rails. It might also give the Foggernaut the way to escape lock zone as long as it stands on the microbot that wasn't yet activated (in order to turn into Motherfogger if we were not already in this form).
Painless Steel - it doesn't really show the Foggernaut to receive no pain. We just have more of the "steel" but we still suffer pain. It should rather give Foggernaut some kind of "plating" that makes it receive 20% less dmg or rather make Foggernaut have "steel that absorb dmg" like Coagulation of Sacrier, but is weaker and is activated all the time because it's a passive.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - June 22, 2013, 08:53:41.
Reason for edit : did math again
Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2011-04-25
posté June 22, 2013, 00:33:03 | #17

Quote (Grou @ 21 June 2013 14:50) *

For now, we want to modify Stasis as follows:
  • Damage bonuses will be based on an average of all damages (critical and damage from back will count as damage all if the condition is fulfilled). The resistance used will always be the lowest one.
New damages:
  • Heart of Steam: 90 (addition of “no line of sight)
Please let me know what you think.

So, let's do some quick maths here. As assumed "average of all damages" is (water damage + air damage + earth damage + fire damage)/4. Here is an example of build which might be used for a revamped stasis fogger:

Spoiler: (highlight to show)
Maybe it's not perfect but not either worst, as it uses almost unobtainable gear (for most players at least). As you can see average of all its damages is 285 (284,75 actually, but let's buff it). It also has pretty good crit rates and damage, as well as backstab. Let's calculate actual damage of heart of steam. Against zero res target it can go for whooping 346,5 damage, so it will be 693 damage per turn. As a high crit build it can do 618,3 damage per crit, up to 1236,6 damage per turn. At 50% crit chance average damage per turn to zero res target will be 964,8 point of damage. Sounds not so bad if we could fight targets who got at least one res at extinct point, right? Now, let's move to average frigost joe-mob. Northern chafers, for example. They all got one lowest resist at 150. So our stasis fogger would deal 627,3 (211,5 non crit + 415,8 crit) average damage per turn to any of northern chafers. Not as good, but it's at least bearable. Boss time. As a good boss example let's take moowolf. He got average/low resists for a boss and got them as every other good boss - equal. And it will be 289,8 (76,5 non crit + 213,3 crit) average damage per turn. Low. If we'll look at Miss Frizz with her 350% resists, our damage would be 177,3 (31,5 non crit + 145,8 crit) per turn. It doesn't look any good at all given that we are using only the rarest gear in game and sacrifice everything to optimise one spell.



In conclusion. This modifications change stasis branch of foggernauts from can-opener (niche, but desired role) to torturer who can punish it's victim if it has a weak point (not needed role at all, as every good team can deal damage in all elements) and prohibit any use of this branch specialized characters at any boss fight.

In my opinion, if you really want to go this way with stasis, formulas must be tweaked to lower base damage of spells, but use at least doubled average of all damages. It would help with equal resistant foes and lower impact of critical and backstab damage stats.


Featherless Piwi * Member Since 2011-02-26
posté June 22, 2013, 01:34:29 | #18
An interesting read the last couple of posts. I love foggers, aesthetically, mechanically, heck they're just my jam so to speak.
I had read that foggers were on the list of classes that were to be played around with shortly by the devs, and I was excited. I'm a currently level capped 120 fogger, I don't do end game UB's or anything like that so I'm sure prior posts have a better understanding than I, but I just love the class and feel I have a least some sort of coherent understanding of them. At least when it comes to stasis.

The fact that you are changing what in my mind is the absolute drive behind this class is, well frankly beyond me. In my experience playing I'm often out performed by lower level, less geared players of a different class, but put me against a high res mob, and boy do I shine, and have fun doing so.
I mean Frigrost was a dream for while. Perfect for us. But apparently too perfect.

I'm not going to offer up any spread sheet type data, I wouldn't know where to begin. But as a player who fell head over heals for this class, and was the thing that tore me from Dofus, I am disillusioned.
Such an interesting idea for a class in an MMO, that in my view was the only reason to play one, and you're killing it. Dead in the water.

Maybe it would become a game breaker later in the GvG fun we have coming, but to be honest I doubt it.

There are many reasons why foggers are seemingly the least played class. Don't give us another.


Short Strich * Member Since 2006-07-14
posté June 22, 2013, 01:42:27 | #19

Quote (Blasting-Veles @ 22 June 2013 00:33) *

In my opinion, if you really want to go this way with stasis, formulas must be tweaked to lower base damage of spells, but use at least doubled average of all damages. It would help with equal resistant foes and lower impact of critical and backstab damage stats.

I agree with everything here. As things appear in the original post, they are actually destroying everything that this class has going for it (not much). I am a pure stasis fogger. I have spent several millions and months of time on gear to make my fogger functional and not a hinderance in most teams. If Ankama implements this change on its own they will *actually* destroy everything that I have worked for. Revamp what is one of the weakest classes in your game instead of nerfing it into oblivion in one fell swoop. I hope that Grou understands the sheer gravity of this change.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2012-02-11
posté June 22, 2013, 01:54:53 | #20
im happy others are outraged at these changes :@ and i agree with the other posts above me.

on a different note it seems grou talked more about this on the french side... just in case you would like to see some more information.


This post has been edited by Nox16 - June 22, 2013, 04:10:45.