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MULTIMAN #1: LUMINO
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2006-05-01
posté December 02, 2013, 22:31:54 | #21
They have cut the base damage and heals of most spells on the Sidekicks on the Beta server.

They went from being watered down single builds to just pitiful pushovers even at lv 200.

You all are forewarned: wait until release on the 10th before you decide to throw out 6 months or a year, or even spend Ogrines on a Multiman.

There may be further nerfs to the Sidekicks, or they might see reason and restore them to something useful before it goes live.

Only time will tell.



Ancient Eradicator * Member Since 2008-06-09
posté December 02, 2013, 22:43:36 | #22

Quote (Asthis @ 02 December 2013 22:12) *

Quote (GodIsWithUs @ 02 December 2013 19:54) *

Quote (Rokugatsu @ 02 December 2013 19:10) *
No, it should be a weaker option for a party or a solo player when they can't find a real player, not a replacement for people.
Why make mmorpg and encourage people to play alone? It makes no sense at all. Of course if someone wants to play alone, he has a right to, but playing in a group should be rewarded, not alone...

Quote
LOL they have 5 spells (I think) and no passives.

7 spells, while one-element players have 5 spells+ support spells, and we are not using all of them, so yeah, they can be OP with 7 spells.
Despite two spells being colored as if they are elemental spells, there are only 4 elemental spells. The other 3 on each character are specialty spells. Of these specialties, there are 2 actives and 1 passive specialties. It would be good if you actually went on the beta to look at them. And for your enjoyment, the Sidekicks were semi-viable before this Monday beta update, but they now are not viable at all even for normal mobs.

Can you elaborate what happened after the beta update to make them not viable?
Lumino changes with Monday Update:

4 AP: 92 to 86

1 AP 1 MP:45 to 40

3 AP heal aoe spell: 65 to 57

5 AP: 125 to 111


Every spell got nerfed in the Monday update. Lumino already had a lower base than an Eni. This just makes it even much lower. With its lack of other things, Lumino is just not a good replacement to the Eni. The Eni heals considerably more on a single target and multiple targets, it can unbewitch states, it has a health passive, has the absorption passive, and with making the eni a fire/water hybrid the Eni also has very useful marks and the mark passive. Nevermind that Sidekicks do not get nation and guild bonuses, along with being able to stat what you want. Only bonus is that Lumino has a longer range. Lumino cannot replace an Eni since it cannot keep up with the healing demand of the players during the fight.

The smallest difference in healing can make the difference between life and death for a battle, and the difference between an Eni and Lumino is more than just small. It is a considerable difference in terms of healing power. I would not want a Lumino in my group for Wabbit mobs since they will not be able to carry the load. If you want a level 140 Lumino for Frigost normal mobs it could suffice but not anything really within 20 levels of your character at least. In terms of performance a level 200 Lumino would be like a level 140 Eni wearing level 200 gear if even that. As Snausages said, they are pushovers.


This post has been edited by GodIsWithUs - December 02, 2013, 22:52:50.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2006-10-23
posté December 02, 2013, 22:53:37 | #23
Well it's still beta, so give back feedback if you think they are too weak. But they are indeed not meant to replace players. For places we can barely dual-account, this should make it slightly easier.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté December 02, 2013, 22:54:01 | #24
Its still better than a saddidas heals.


Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-03-26
posté December 02, 2013, 23:06:26 | #25
If it's better than no healer at all then that's fine isn't it. Sidekick and other classes that can heal a bit is better if you don't have eni. They're not meant to replace real players so I don't see the problem here.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2006-10-23
posté December 02, 2013, 23:17:32 | #26
Personally I think they are great! I'll be able to spam Crow dungeon now. ^^


Ancient Eradicator * Member Since 2008-06-09
posté December 02, 2013, 23:46:35 | #27

Quote (MereBytes @ 02 December 2013 23:06) *
If it's better than no healer at all then that's fine isn't it. Sidekick and other classes that can heal a bit is better if you don't have eni. They're not meant to replace real players so I don't see the problem here.
The healer has the extra load of being a key member. The Eni makes one of the largest contributors to the group in terms of final outcome. Yes, Lumino is not meant to replace a player and is "better than no healer", but if they are watered down to where the substitute cannot at least be suffice for the normal mobs that you want to do there is the problem. Why would anyone care for a level 200 Lumino if it is not good enough to heal your group against mobs of creatures level 180+ when that is all you want to fight? So even if as you said it is better than no healer, in mobs at your level they will be just as useless as no healer since they cannot keep up with the healing. That is why I put the quotation marks in earlier since they are better than no healer up to a certain point and then become as useless. These Sidekicks hinder you from fighting normal mobs at your level, and no one wants to be hindered. People want to fight the mobs they want to fight, not lower mobs that they have no interest in. I am not asking for them to be just as good as players, as evident from the fact I never said anything about them being good for dungeons even though a main reason people look for groups is for dungeons. What I am saying is that I want the Sidekick to be good enough to fight mobs of creatures around my level, and I think many feel the same way. That is the problem. Lumino is not good enough for mobs around your level. Though at least it is not as bad as Shadow, which got severely nerfed. Shadow is meant to be a close combat DPS, but will now lack the base damage to be so. Shadows 4 AP gap closer deals 86 damage while Super Iop Punch deals 146 and has a 30% chance for a 50 damage explosion which means an average of 161. All for the same cost of 4 AP. 3 Jabs and 2 Gusts deals 264 damage for 6 AP 2 MP and two of Shadow's Chains deals 196 damage for the same cost. Both are one range. That is a joke. It is one thing to make the Sidekick less powerful than a player, but it is another thing to make the Sidekick unable to fulfill its job.


This post has been edited by GodIsWithUs - December 02, 2013, 23:47:39.
Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2011-05-07
posté December 02, 2013, 23:55:29 | #28
Personally, I'm not too worried. I'm sure they'll be tweaking those numbers all the way to the 10th. And if they don't, well, then there will be zero worries about Multimen being P2W, they'll be yet another wasted mechanic and we'll all go back to multiboxing in order to use real characters capable of fulfilling their roles if sidekicks won't.  


This post has been edited by FurmentalAlchemy - December 02, 2013, 23:59:15.
Reason for edit : Bit less of (unintended) snark
Short Strich * Member Since 2012-01-09
posté December 03, 2013, 00:47:29 | #29
If they turn out to be junk, can I have them as sadida pets instead


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2012-12-21
posté December 03, 2013, 03:09:41 | #30
I just need them to be good enough to run with 2 accounts. If I can spam whisper dungeons and a couple of the chill dungeons at around 140 then I'm happy. I would expect to only be able to take on stuff below my level with 4 of these on the team.

I'd prefer them to be weak enough to make grouping with players the much better option but strong enough to make leveling and running some decent dungeons possible with effort.

Running with a group can be a pain because someone is always AFK. With these the AFK could drop group and we could pick up a multiman and keep going until they get back. Waiting around is the worst thing about grouping in this game...if you manage to even find a group.

edit: should note I plan to resub my accounts if these turn out half decent. I'm hoping they will allow me to do what I want instead of waiting on a non existent population.


This post has been edited by Eddaos - December 03, 2013, 03:11:26.
Reason for edit : note
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté December 03, 2013, 03:39:37 | #31
I agree. Yes, Multimen got a slight nerf to most of their overall numbers, but I think it is totally warranted. They were on par if not better in some aspects to some other classes. A few little nerfs wont hurt that. Lumino's 1ap heal getting taken down to 40 instead of 44 is really no biggie. Look at the passives, and the wakfu. The man can start a fight off with +140% heal(whereas eni and sadi have to build it up) and on top of that, his only move that uses wakfu increases his heal% by another +60%.

I extend this out to all of the other complaints about characters getting their things nerfed, frankly they were too good. Multimen should exist as group fillers and really nothing more. A fully geared multiman should never be more effective than a player at the same role with the same gear.

All I want out of multimen is a way for parties and dungeon runs to happen even when we only have 4 people willing to do it. And with my two accounts I want to have the freedom to run easier dungeons like Undie World, Hurl, Mussly Hamman, etc without having to beg other people to help me in it is what is essentially a waste of their time.

I approve of toning down multiman and the PP caps, although they sting a bit I understand their purposes and I feel like they do a good job in creating an overall healthier game.


This post has been edited by TheMightyShell - December 03, 2013, 04:27:20.
Reason for edit : something crazy happened when posting
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-23
posté December 03, 2013, 04:02:11 | #32
I originally thought TheMightyShell wrote a long and well-thought out post, but then realized about a third of the way through... it's the exact same thing three times.


This post has been edited by SSBKewkky - December 03, 2013, 04:02:24.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté December 03, 2013, 04:28:05 | #33

Quote (SSBKewkky @ 03 December 2013 04:02) *
I originally thought TheMightyShell wrote a long and well-thought out post, but then realized about a third of the way through... it's the exact same thing three times.
Yeah, not sure what happened there. Fixed now.


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2011-06-13
posté December 03, 2013, 05:59:54 | #34
Remember when devs invented the exp cap to promote party-ing?

Neither do I


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2011-07-24
posté December 03, 2013, 06:43:58 | #35

Quote (GodIsWithUs @ 02 December 2013 23:46) *

Quote (MereBytes @ 02 December 2013 23:06) *
If it's better than no healer at all then that's fine isn't it. Sidekick and other classes that can heal a bit is better if you don't have eni. They're not meant to replace real players so I don't see the problem here.
The healer has the extra load of being a key member. The Eni makes one of the largest contributors to the group in terms of final outcome. Yes, Lumino is not meant to replace a player and is "better than no healer", but if they are watered down to where the substitute cannot at least be suffice for the normal mobs that you want to do there is the problem. Why would anyone care for a level 200 Lumino if it is not good enough to heal your group against mobs of creatures level 180+ when that is all you want to fight? So even if as you said it is better than no healer, in mobs at your level they will be just as useless as no healer since they cannot keep up with the healing. That is why I put the quotation marks in earlier since they are better than no healer up to a certain point and then become as useless. These Sidekicks hinder you from fighting normal mobs at your level, and no one wants to be hindered. People want to fight the mobs they want to fight, not lower mobs that they have no interest in. I am not asking for them to be just as good as players, as evident from the fact I never said anything about them being good for dungeons even though a main reason people look for groups is for dungeons. What I am saying is that I want the Sidekick to be good enough to fight mobs of creatures around my level, and I think many feel the same way. That is the problem. Lumino is not good enough for mobs around your level. Though at least it is not as bad as Shadow, which got severely nerfed. Shadow is meant to be a close combat DPS, but will now lack the base damage to be so. Shadows 4 AP gap closer deals 86 damage while Super Iop Punch deals 146 and has a 30% chance for a 50 damage explosion which means an average of 161. All for the same cost of 4 AP. 3 Jabs and 2 Gusts deals 264 damage for 6 AP 2 MP and two of Shadow's Chains deals 196 damage for the same cost. Both are one range. That is a joke. It is one thing to make the Sidekick less powerful than a player, but it is another thing to make the Sidekick unable to fulfill its job.
Don't worry child, Iop are OP it's oficial position of Ankama.

Lumino is not bad, it's some alternative for solo palyers. Coz it's unfair that Eni is strictly_binding_member of all parties. And if you don't wanna multimen you can buy subscribe for another acc. (i know some guys who play by 6 acc).

I have more important question: Is multiman get ap with lvls? Or it's always with 6ap and can get another only for his gear?? 


This post has been edited by milordDen - December 03, 2013, 06:48:12.
Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2012-06-20
posté December 03, 2013, 06:53:25 | #36
ugh I have no space D=


posté December 03, 2013, 19:48:20 | #37
Seems like they were nerfed. Guess another wasted idea


Ancient Eradicator * Member Since 2008-06-09
posté December 03, 2013, 20:21:49 | #38

Quote (milordDen @ 03 December 2013 06:43) *

Quote (GodIsWithUs @ 02 December 2013 23:46) *

Quote (MereBytes @ 02 December 2013 23:06) *
If it's better than no healer at all then that's fine isn't it. Sidekick and other classes that can heal a bit is better if you don't have eni. They're not meant to replace real players so I don't see the problem here.
The healer has the extra load of being a key member. The Eni makes one of the largest contributors to the group in terms of final outcome. Yes, Lumino is not meant to replace a player and is "better than no healer", but if they are watered down to where the substitute cannot at least be suffice for the normal mobs that you want to do there is the problem. Why would anyone care for a level 200 Lumino if it is not good enough to heal your group against mobs of creatures level 180+ when that is all you want to fight? So even if as you said it is better than no healer, in mobs at your level they will be just as useless as no healer since they cannot keep up with the healing. That is why I put the quotation marks in earlier since they are better than no healer up to a certain point and then become as useless. These Sidekicks hinder you from fighting normal mobs at your level, and no one wants to be hindered. People want to fight the mobs they want to fight, not lower mobs that they have no interest in. I am not asking for them to be just as good as players, as evident from the fact I never said anything about them being good for dungeons even though a main reason people look for groups is for dungeons. What I am saying is that I want the Sidekick to be good enough to fight mobs of creatures around my level, and I think many feel the same way. That is the problem. Lumino is not good enough for mobs around your level. Though at least it is not as bad as Shadow, which got severely nerfed. Shadow is meant to be a close combat DPS, but will now lack the base damage to be so. Shadows 4 AP gap closer deals 86 damage while Super Iop Punch deals 146 and has a 30% chance for a 50 damage explosion which means an average of 161. All for the same cost of 4 AP. 3 Jabs and 2 Gusts deals 264 damage for 6 AP 2 MP and two of Shadow's Chains deals 196 damage for the same cost. Both are one range. That is a joke. It is one thing to make the Sidekick less powerful than a player, but it is another thing to make the Sidekick unable to fulfill its job.
Don't worry child, Iop are OP it's oficial position of Ankama.

Lumino is not bad, it's some alternative for solo palyers. Coz it's unfair that Eni is strictly_binding_member of all parties. And if you don't wanna multimen you can buy subscribe for another acc. (i know some guys who play by 6 acc).

I have more important question: Is multiman get ap with lvls? Or it's always with 6ap and can get another only for his gear??
What you just stated has no real relevancy to what I wrote. My paragraph was about how Lumino lacks the capabilities to be useful for regular mobs at the player's level. It is only an alternative for players that want to do something below their level, and that is irrelevant to my point since I am talking about Lumino needing to be useful to fight mobs at the player's level. I am not even talking about dungeons even. A Sidekick should not hinder someone from at least fighting mobs at your level. Sidekicks should be good enough to fight mobs, but not good enough to fight in dungeons at the player's level.

As for me wanting to use Sidekicks, I have already stated I do not want to use them, even before the nerf. What I do not want for Ankama to do is waste what they developed since if such a system becomes a waste the company could have spent time somewhere else.

And congratulations on knowing some people that have six accounts. Many of use also know some people like that. It is astonishing right? And here I was thinking I was the only one that knew someone with six accounts .

And here ends my post that I wasted time on in response to a post that someone else wasted their time on.... 


Short Strich * Member Since 2013-01-17
posté December 03, 2013, 20:38:20 | #39

Quote (milordDen @ 03 December 2013 06:43) *


I have more important question: Is multiman get ap with lvls? Or it's always with 6ap and can get another only for his gear??


I've heard in Team Speak from teammates testing beta that they get 1 AP more AP at level 30 or 31 (not sure). I don't know about further progression. And it was before Monday update, so the info need to be checked.


Short Strich * Member Since 2012-01-07
posté December 04, 2013, 06:33:08 | #40
Can someone who plays in the beta confirm weather or not this is actually how little Lumino will heal at a high-ish level? (I'd say level 100+)