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Sidekicks
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-10-04
posté December 03, 2013, 10:18:43 | #141
Uhm guys, it's normal that Beta is a testing ground and values are changing.

@ Troyle
I have an important question. Is the level of sidekicks considered for the group level?
I just can pray yes, because otherwise people who care about EXP will only group with players anymore to fight UBs .
But if the answer is yes, our Solo-Eniripsa with her Shadow and Trank of equal level has to fight groups of 3 mobs of her level to get non-nerfed EXP. Will be fun at Wabbit island...

Btw., did anyone notice that after the revamp of the EXP-curve it will be much easier to level your Sidekick compared to a low level friend or twink? Sidekicks get 80% of your experience. Lowlevel characters, if not fully wis-geared, get lower EXP from a fight then you. And if the level gap is big enough, the EXP revamp will nerf their (and your) EXP to death when doing content together.


posté December 03, 2013, 19:29:39 | #142
Troyle tell your team they have 2 options.

1. Make multimen not suck (throw away the silly constraint of trying to make them weaker than players)

2. Make multi-men suck ( make them weaker than players)

The choice is up to your team, but if these characters suck there's no way I'm giving wakfu my business.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté December 03, 2013, 21:19:20 | #143
I think it's great that sidekicks are like 80-90% of the strength of real players. That's the way it should be, it should always be less optimal to run a multimen than to bring a player. Otherwise people would only ever run with their multimen. Secondly, I still believe multimen are fantastic. As a quick example between shadow and an Iop: Iop's 4ap/1mp move deals 136 damage at level 200. Or 34/ap. Shadow's 3ap/1mp move deals 98 damage at level 200, or 32/ap.

So we can see here that the damage is ever so lightly less for shadow. Now let's look at the built in tools both of these classes have to increase their own damage:

Shadow at level 200 will have a +50% damage increase. For each ally he also gains +30% damage. Putting all this together in a group of 5 he can start the fight off with +200% damage. He can also further boost his ap by 2 for the cost of wakfu, but let's ignore that and just look at how he can amplify his damage on this one spell.

The +200% bonus will bring the 98 damage spell to 294 damage - or 98/ap

Iop will recieve +40% damage at the start of the battle, already significantly less than that of shadow. However, using power an Iop will eventually be able to gain an extra +100% damage. This brings the total power to +140% -- much less than that of Shadow. It would take an ally to kill one enemy and score at least one critical hit for Iop to reach the same +200% which is honestly very easy to get and no doubt would Iop be able to achieve more with a full group.

So with the +200% bonus that an Iop can achieve they will be capable of dealing 408 damage, or 102/ap.

So all-in-all, multimen are still very strong especially given that they can come in to a fight so strong, but real players will have more utility, and will be able to achieve more damage as the fight goes on.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté December 03, 2013, 21:23:26 | #144
I agree with TheMightyShell, Infact i think they will be more effective than some of the weaker classes at they're specialty.


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - December 03, 2013, 21:24:07.
Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2012-04-26
posté December 04, 2013, 11:40:16 | #145
Do Sidekicks (also the chromatic ones) get extra dmg and resist from leveling their spells? Otherwise those wont have good resistens at all. Only the equipment cant solve that problem.

And what about chromatik Sidekicks when their dmg ist balanced!? Which element will be chosen to take dmg? Or are those useless then?

Will we get some posibility to lv their stats (Like crit, Hp)? Not all of them, but a few.


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2011-12-01
posté December 04, 2013, 12:31:58 | #146

Quote (Knight-Breaker @ 04 December 2013 11:40) *
Do Sidekicks (also the chromatic ones) get extra dmg and resist from leveling their spells? Otherwise those wont have good resistens at all. Only the equipment cant solve that problem.

And what about chromatik Sidekicks when their dmg ist balanced!? Which element will be chosen to take dmg? Or are those useless then?

Will we get some posibility to lv their stats (Like crit, Hp)? Not all of them, but a few.
You do realize Chromatic works best when your elements are not balanced, right?

Chromatic Damage/Heals use your highest mastery as their element.

So let's say you have:
Air: 27%
Fire: 300%
Earth: 243%
Water: 145%

You would be then using the 300% and dealing Fire Damage/Heals.

Where it get's tricky is when you have elements that are the same, such as your highest being 300% in two different elements. Troyle has mentioned that there is an in game formula that decides then which element it would use, though we don't know what that formula is I don't think.



It has also been mentioned that the spell levels of the sidekicks will raise with their level and they will be receiving masteries from those spells.

However, we do not know how that will exactly work with the two Chromatic Sidekicks as there have never been chromatic spells in the game before (just specialties and weapons).



- Kat


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2012-04-26
posté December 04, 2013, 14:24:51 | #147

Quote (kurokat @ 04 December 2013 12:31) *
You do realize Chromatic works best when your elements are not balanced, right?

Chromatic Damage/Heals use your highest mastery as their element.

So let's say you have:
Air: 27%
Fire: 300%
Earth: 243%
Water: 145%

You would be then using the 300% and dealing Fire Damage/Heals.

Where it get's tricky is when you have elements that are the same, such as your highest being 300% in two different elements. Troyle has mentioned that there is an in game formula that decides then which element it would use, though we don't know what that formula is I don't think.



It has also been mentioned that the spell levels of the sidekicks will raise with their level and they will be receiving masteries from those spells.

However, we do not know how that will exactly work with the two Chromatic Sidekicks as there have never been chromatic spells in the game before (just specialties and weapons).



- Kat
There is a special point of leveling a chromatic character balanced. For each Fight you can decide which mastery you would like to use, by changing for example only one item of his equip. Or you can keep 4 different build for your sidekick with you.

Wasn't the formula kinda like this: the game will look at the lowest resistance of your opponent and chose that mastery. (Or was it something at foggers revamp?!) This way a balanced sidekick is reeeeally nice. If he's a damage dealer. Did you catches my idea?

I really would love to see it working this way.

Okay that is nice that the dmg and resistance will be raised. I already maid a build for a lv 105 shadow. Don't blame me for that lv, im playing slowly and I enjoying it.
Hopefully Shadow will get % on getting AP on his active spell, so we'll get a chance to get 2 AP's when he's lv 102+

Knight


Mister Winter Fashion Victim 2012 * Member Since 2012-12-16
posté December 04, 2013, 14:47:00 | #148

Quote (TheMightyShell @ 03 December 2013 21:19) *
I think it's great that sidekicks are like 80-90% of the strength of real players. That's the way it should be, it should always be less optimal to run a multimen than to bring a player. Otherwise people would only ever run with their multimen. Secondly, I still believe multimen are fantastic. As a quick example between shadow and an Iop: Iop's 4ap/1mp move deals 136 damage at level 200. Or 34/ap. Shadow's 3ap/1mp move deals 98 damage at level 200, or 32/ap.

So we can see here that the damage is ever so lightly less for shadow. Now let's look at the built in tools both of these classes have to increase their own damage:

Shadow at level 200 will have a +50% damage increase. For each ally he also gains +30% damage. Putting all this together in a group of 5 he can start the fight off with +200% damage. He can also further boost his ap by 2 for the cost of wakfu, but let's ignore that and just look at how he can amplify his damage on this one spell.

The +200% bonus will bring the 98 damage spell to 294 damage - or 98/ap

Iop will recieve +40% damage at the start of the battle, already significantly less than that of shadow. However, using power an Iop will eventually be able to gain an extra +100% damage. This brings the total power to +140% -- much less than that of Shadow. It would take an ally to kill one enemy and score at least one critical hit for Iop to reach the same +200% which is honestly very easy to get and no doubt would Iop be able to achieve more with a full group.

So with the +200% bonus that an Iop can achieve they will be capable of dealing 408 damage, or 102/ap.

So all-in-all, multimen are still very strong especially given that they can come in to a fight so strong, but real players will have more utility, and will be able to achieve more damage as the fight goes on.

The advantage to chromacy is that your element should retroactively change depending on who you attack, as long as all the highest damage % are perfectly balanced. For example if you have 300% across the board, you'll always attack an enemy's weakest resist since balanced chromacy is supposed to take that into account.

Edit: After someone gave me some info about him he could turn out decent pending how his stat allocation works and how well you can outfit him. While he gets no nation or guild bonus, his Chromatic mastery damage seems decent (the resists look awful though). Something along the lines of 40% damage 10% resist at level 50, so presumably around 115% damage 25% resist at level 140? Estimated it.

But all the more power to you if you get him. I just think Skale, Korbax, and Trank are the better sidekicks here for their utility.

• Mango


This post has been edited by Brokonaut - December 04, 2013, 15:25:39.
Community Manager * Member Since 2012-02-28
posté December 05, 2013, 10:33:12 | #149
Important note about the second roll offered by a Sidekick: It has finally been decided that the second roll will not use the PP of the player. The PP used will be the basic PP of the Multiman.

In other words, if you have a PP of 200 (100 base + 100 bonus) and try to drop an item with 2.5% drop rate, you’ll have 5% chance of getting it. If you fail this roll, your Multiman will grant you a second roll with his basic PP (100 base), giving you 2.5% chance to obtain it. Increasing the PP of the Multiman will not influence this roll.


Also, following feedback received from the Beta server, it has been decided to increase the experience gained by a Sidekick to 120% of the experience gained by the player, instead of 80%.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté December 05, 2013, 11:08:36 | #150
Wow, I'm happy about both of those things!


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-10-04
posté December 05, 2013, 12:23:41 | #151

Quote (Troyle @ 05 December 2013 10:33) *
Important note about the second roll offered by a Sidekick: It has finally been decided that the second roll will not use the PP of the player. The PP used will be the basic PP of the Multiman.

In other words, if you have a PP of 200 (100 base + 100 bonus) and try to drop an item with 2.5% drop rate, you’ll have 5% chance of getting it. If you fail this roll, your Multiman will grant you a second roll with his basic PP (100 base), giving you 2.5% chance to obtain it. Increasing the PP of the Multiman will not influence this roll.

Haha. Ankama, this is soooo you. Neither they use the PP of the player, nor they get the bonus from equip or challenges. Despite they now were nerfed that heavily, they keep being the best drop-gear, especially to get non-boss-drops. But you still have time to change their base PP to 50 oder 0 and give them a reroll with a chance of 25%.

At least no one has to buy one for the nerfed extra rolls, since we always can take the rotation sidekick and the Astrub Knight with us. Skale, i'm sorry but i guess i won't buy you anymore.

Btw. i'm quite happy they are nerfed to death since the more unattractive they are, the bigger are the chances people prefer to take a player character with them instead of their p2w-sidekicks.


This post has been edited by Elithril - December 05, 2013, 12:28:07.
Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2008-02-09
posté December 05, 2013, 15:23:00 | #152

Quote (Troyle @ 05 December 2013 10:33) *
Important note about the second roll offered by a Sidekick: It has finally been decided that the second roll will not use the PP of the player. The PP used will be the basic PP of the Multiman.

In other words, if you have a PP of 200 (100 base + 100 bonus) and try to drop an item with 2.5% drop rate, you’ll have 5% chance of getting it. If you fail this roll, your Multiman will grant you a second roll with his basic PP (100 base), giving you 2.5% chance to obtain it. Increasing the PP of the Multiman will not influence this roll..


LOL... just lol.... lol... i am sorry... lol!!!

HAHA you are so damn ridiculous!

I realy can´t believe how you shock me again and again with your just damn stupid decisions!

How Elithril says... you now nerfed them down to hell... i will also just use the knight and the "rotational" sidekick

That is so weird.... lol....


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2006-10-14
posté December 05, 2013, 19:10:39 | #153
Will side kicks earn you guild points? I assume they won't simply because it isn't like the get guild bonuses however I would like clarification. Thank you!


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2012-12-20
posté December 05, 2013, 19:45:56 | #154
Buff Astrub Knight xD.


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-08-18
posté December 06, 2013, 00:01:15 | #155
The passive for Astrub Knight which does not appear to have any effects ("[li]"; someone probably forgot to type in the effects), on the beta server the passive gives him +1% damage per level (+200% at lv200) and an additional +1% per level against targets who are lv60 and below (also +200% at lv200).

After playing around with Astrub Knight, it feels like a more defense oriented version of Shadow. For being completely free I would be content with how it works on the beta server now but I think a lot more people would consider using it if it had a utility spell. Maybe a WP skill that stabilizes a target at 1 range or stabilizes itself.


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2011-12-01
posté December 06, 2013, 09:18:28 | #156

Quote (Elithril @ 05 December 2013 12:23) *

Quote (Troyle @ 05 December 2013 10:33) *
Important note about the second roll offered by a Sidekick: It has finally been decided that the second roll will not use the PP of the player. The PP used will be the basic PP of the Multiman.

In other words, if you have a PP of 200 (100 base + 100 bonus) and try to drop an item with 2.5% drop rate, you’ll have 5% chance of getting it. If you fail this roll, your Multiman will grant you a second roll with his basic PP (100 base), giving you 2.5% chance to obtain it. Increasing the PP of the Multiman will not influence this roll.

Haha. Ankama, this is soooo you. Neither they use the PP of the player, nor they get the bonus from equip or challenges. Despite they now were nerfed that heavily, they keep being the best drop-gear, especially to get non-boss-drops. But you still have time to change their base PP to 50 oder 0 and give them a reroll with a chance of 25%.

At least no one has to buy one for the nerfed extra rolls, since we always can take the rotation sidekick and the Astrub Knight with us. Skale, i'm sorry but i guess i won't buy you anymore.

Btw. i'm quite happy they are nerfed to death since the more unattractive they are, the bigger are the chances people prefer to take a player character with them instead of their p2w-sidekicks.

Quote (Frittei @ 05 December 2013 15:23) *
LOL... just lol.... lol... i am sorry... lol!!!

HAHA you are so damn ridiculous!

I realy can´t believe how you shock me again and again with your just damn stupid decisions!

How Elithril says... you now nerfed them down to hell... i will also just use the knight and the "rotational" sidekick

That is so weird.... lol....


Well, it's sad you both think so.

You do realize that they're giving you a second chance at a drop still, right?

People complained that it was becoming P2W, with such things as an Enu with lots of PP able to get multiple drops at the increased PP, so now our PP won't affect the Sidekick drop. That and Sidekicks never could use PP or Wisdom anyway, so no loss there.

On top of still giving use another drop (for those paraniod about about sharing drops) and now they even upped how much XP the Sidekicks get to 120% of what you get in battle meaning they should (as long as you're not doing quests) keep up easily with your level.

To finish it off, they offer many interesting moves and allow people who cannot find a full party, whether they don't know anyone or all their friends are just busy or offline, a larger group to play with. To top it all off, you can buy and trade the Sidekicks with other players and your Sidekicks are linked to your whole account for easy swapping without having to use a friend or a guildbank to transfer to another character.

Well, to each their own. I believe I shall enjoy what the Sidekicks have to offer. You are of course free to believe what you will and not use the wondrous new Sidekick feature if you believe it not to be worth it.


- Kat


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-10-04
posté December 06, 2013, 10:28:40 | #157
Kurokat. It's just that, as stated in the other thread, PP is capped. The reasons are to be found in other, drop-improving aspects of the update. While Ankama states the reason are the challenges, it was also obvious that equipping two sidekicks would raise the chances of a PP-nerfed character back to as it is now. Since Sidekicks ignore the PP from challenges (and equip) they were designed to use the PP of the character for their rerolls. Now they don't use any PP at all (100 base PP is like 0 PP, if we don't talk about the minimum PP-amount a group needs to have to "unlock" the roll for certain items). Two reasons i find that hilarious.
1. There is no feature-interaction between sidekicks, challenges and the PP-cap. They influence each other but Ankama completely ignores that.
2. This whole PP-cap just sucks but the rerolls offered a way to get a bit of the chances we had before back. But now everyone who was happy about that was proved wrong, smashed in the face by Ankama. And it's just like "well.. lol.. i was so stupid. Should have seen that coming".

Sidekicks are still pay to win. The only free Sidekick doesn't even has as much spells as the other ones. He is just boring. All other Sidekicks can be bought by spending Ogrines or real life money.
You may have noticed that Ankama decided to get more money from us, by raising the Ogrine prices of abonements and now by introducing Sidekicks and adding them to the abonements of 6 and 12 months, while many players state they aren't even sure if they want to sub anymore.

One thing i might should add is that playing on Amara may give people a different point of view. While Ankama gets more money, they completely ignore the german server. It's not just that we have no Community Manager who reads our forum, spreaks our language or comes to Germany for wakfu events - we neither have advertisment nor is our homepage updated and our calls for server merges are ignored, while our population decreases. I think that f***s us enough, we don't need additionaly thinks like PP nerfs and features who compensate that and are deleted a week before the update.

Can you please send me a link where someone complains high-PP characters equipped with 2 "use the PP of their owner"-Sidekicks make Wakfu gamebreaking and pay to win? The only post i saw in this forum about that issue was from me. And i didn't complain, i was happy. And nobody replied to my post, complaining about the feature.

PS: The increased EXP for sidekicks is unnecessary. They already level very fast. Defeat 3 Lenalds and they jump to Lvl 30. Even if they die in the fight. Same fore environmental quest EXP. And they use Wisdom - not their own but the Wisdom of the players, which increases the player's EXP and so also increases theirs. But they don't use the PP of the player. Why? Because people on the heavily populated french server are complaining about too many drops. And since they are Ankamas favourites, drop is nerfed for all of us. Since Ankama is too lazy for server-specific changes, when it comes to non-chinese players.


This post has been edited by Elithril - December 06, 2013, 10:36:47.
Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2012-12-20
posté December 06, 2013, 15:58:04 | #158

Quote (Kakenshu @ 06 December 2013 00:01) *
The passive for Astrub Knight which does not appear to have any effects ("[li]"; someone probably forgot to type in the effects), on the beta server the passive gives him +1% damage per level (+200% at lv200) and an additional +1% per level against targets who are lv60 and below (also +200% at lv200).

After playing around with Astrub Knight, it feels like a more defense oriented version of Shadow. For being completely free I would be content with how it works on the beta server now but I think a lot more people would consider using it if it had a utility spell. Maybe a WP skill that stabilizes a target at 1 range or stabilizes itself.
but do his spells gain a crit like he seems to be the only sidekick with no crit dmg. QQ


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2006-05-01
posté December 07, 2013, 17:57:15 | #159
IIRC they said the Sidekicks will have 100 PP fixed when rolling for drops.

This is different than the 100 invisible PP used for actually unlocking drops.

They do not combine.

One is for Unlock, the other is for attempting a successful roll on any items their equipping Player Character has failed on.

Oh I just reread what Troyle wrote. The Sidekicks will roll based off zero PP, thus just granting an extra drop roll based off the default drop rate of the item.

Well, it's still better than nothing I suppose.

Fcking SIGH. So sad, Ankama. You could at least give them 100PP or something, fml.


Quote (Troyle @ 05 December 2013 10:33) *
Important note about the second roll offered by a Sidekick: It has finally been decided that the second roll will not use the PP of the player. The PP used will be the basic PP of the Multiman.

In other words, if you have a PP of 200 (100 base + 100 bonus) and try to drop an item with 2.5% drop rate, you’ll have 5% chance of getting it. If you fail this roll, your Multiman will grant you a second roll with his basic PP (100 base), giving you 2.5% chance to obtain it. Increasing the PP of the Multiman will not influence this roll.


Also, following feedback received from the Beta server, it has been decided to increase the experience gained by a Sidekick to 120% of the experience gained by the player, instead of 80%.

See now, I don't quite get it. Here's how I've understood this:

We each have a base 100 INVISIBLE prospecting, used only for the purpose of unlocking drops. This INVISIBLE prospecting is essentially a placeholder, saying "There is a person here". It can be augmented by equipping more PP, statting it via passives, or consuming buffs and getting stuff via nations, guilds, challenges, etc.

This INVISIBLE prospecting is not actually used to roll for drops. If all you have is your INVISIBLE base 100, all you'll see as a stat is a big fat 0 (zero). a 2.5% drop would remain a 2.5% drop.

In Troyle's example, we see a person with 200 total PP. We can imagine this as 100 via equips and another 100 with a candy, for example. For this person, if they had 100PP, the 2.5% drop would turn into a 5% drop, but with the 200 PP it should be 7.5%

For each of their Sidekicks, we should see this 2.5% drop (if missed by the Player Character) remain either 2.5% if they have zero PP (AKA A Sidekick only has the INVISIBLE 100 base) or increase to a 5% drop if the Sidekick has 100 base.


In Troyle's example I fail to see how he reaches only 5% for the player character with 200 PP, and only 2.5% (basically unaffected by PP) for the Sidekick.

In summation, I'd like to know if the Sidekicks have zero PP when ROLLING for an item, or if they have a base 100 PP when ROLLING for an item. I'm already aware they have an INVISIBLE "warm body" PP for UNLOCKING that isn't used for actually ROLLING.

If it's going to be Zero PP when ROLLING, I'll probably just buy a Lumino and take the others free on rotation, because it's probably not going to be worth it to pay.


This post has been edited by TommyTrouble - December 07, 2013, 18:54:20.
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-10-04
posté December 08, 2013, 08:41:12 | #160
You already found out that the Sidekicks in Troyle's example has only 100 invisble PP TommyTrouble.

100 PP just sounds better then zero, so anyone who isn't familiar with the PP-issue thinks "oh now nice, they have 100 free PP. love ya Ankama".

But there is another reason every character has 100 invisible (wtf!?) PP. See, 100 PP is like 100% of the basic droprate. If i have 100 PP vom equip etc. and 100 base, this makes 200 - 200%. Which means my basic droprate is doubled. Aaaand the invisible PP is needed when it comes to PP lock-checks.

But still, as i already wrote - at first they think Sidekicks should use the PP of the player and ignore their own PP from equip. Then they find out - because players are happy - it's too powerful. But instead of coming to the conclusion to let sidekicks use PP from equipment and their stupid new challenges, which are the reason Wakfu gets a PP cap after all, they don't come to any conclusion at all and just leave the Sidekicks their 100/0 invisible PP.