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Kamas in WAKFU
Producer & Lead Game Designer * Member Since 2009-09-18
posté December 20, 2012, 16:55:50 | #1
Kamas in WAKFU



In this article, Azael will tell you about the economy in WAKFU, and his plan to improve its impact on your daily life!Hi there!


It’s been a long time since I wrote my last Devblog article, but today I decided to talk about the economy in WAKFU and how we plan to tweak it, in short and middle term.

We’re aware of the two main issues the economy is facing:
  • (in)accessibility to Kamas,
  • Huge gap between rich and poor.

This article will focus on the first point, accessibility, and its implications in the game.

Kamas? What’s that?

To have one Kama (especially the first one!) is actually very much time consuming, which has a direct impact on the “granularity” of the economy.

To make it simple, the harder it is to get a Kama, the higher its value.

Since we don’t have Kama “cents”, even a 1 Kama cost is expensive to our low level players.

This tends to lower the prices, or even make some resources impossible to sell because they’re deemed too “common”.

Therefore, we must act on the accessibility of Kamas to increase granularity of our economy. Here’s what we plan to do:
  • Increase the profitability of Kamas crafts,
  • Add the possibility to loot Kamas on bosses (wait until you read the rest of the article!).

Modifications of the Kama recipes

We will start with a revamp of the various Kama recipes to make them more profitable. Better than long explanations, here are the new recipes:
  • 1 Kama = 1 Iron,
  • 20 Kamas = 3 Copper + 5 Iron,
  • 40 Kamas = 3 Copper + 4 Grainy Manganese,
  • 60 Kamas = 4 Grainy Manganese + 3 Hazy Lead.

When a player had 1 Kama before, he will now have 10!

Don’t worry, we will also increase the amount of Kamas you already own on your characters, in your guild chests and nations treasury, the price of the items you put in the Market… These will automatically be multiplied by 10 when the revamp is implemented. If you had 1.000 Kamas on your character or in your chest, you will have 10.000 upon reconnection. Similarly, if you had an item in the Market for 10 Kamas, after the update its cost will be 100 Kamas (and the appropriate tax will apply)! No need to save ore in anticipation of these changes.

Boss drops

We’re currently looking into the possibility to get Kamas on dungeon bosses.

The higher level the dungeon, the better the gain.

We didn’t decide yet the amount of Kamas received, and we would actually like to have your opinion on this point.

Therefore, I invite you to let us know by commenting on this devblog: we will talk with your CCMs in order to take your feedback into account!

When will this be out?

Concerning boss drops, we don’t have any date planned yet since we’ll first wait for your feedback before making a final decision.

Concerning the Kamas recipes, they will come early next year.

I also want to use this opportunity to let you know that we want to make most Boutique items tradable in early 2013, in the intent to galvanize the economy.

And to make it even better, we decided to help you by giving you Kamas during the Kwismas period! All players with an active subscription between December 25th and 27th will receive 200 Kamas in the days following this period…

Merry Kwismas!


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2005-07-09
posté December 20, 2012, 17:09:53 | #2
Oh boy. This will actually make me poorer. Due to role play reasons I cannot become a miner :s Guess I'll really need a mining alt now... I actually like the idea of having cents, mais soit.

On bosses dropping kamas, it's hard to decide. I like the idea that all the kamas are man-made. So that you will be giving out kamas and increasing the existing ammounts is sad in my eyes. But I'll get over it, I guess. For the bosses Kamas, can we think of a system sort of similar to the conquerable islands/taxes & the kamas quests. Make the bosses loot ammounts equivalent to the hardness of the dungeon and the ammount of people losing/dying inside. This way bosses who haven't been beaten in a long time can drop a big loot of money. Make is so that high level players can't loot the money from low level dungeons.

So, the price might build overtime. I haven't tought the details trough, but it's a start.


Lazy Bow Meow * Member Since 2012-10-12
posté December 20, 2012, 17:11:39 | #3
Agreed


Featherless Piwi * Member Since 2009-02-05
posté December 20, 2012, 17:35:01 | #4
Well, I see no difference. What's the matter with the current economic system?


Lazy Bow Meow * Member Since 2011-12-12
posté December 20, 2012, 17:37:01 | #5
I agree with PidgeonX about the idea that all kamas should be man-made. That is the essence of the game, if you continue like this, then Wakfu will become a Dofus copy in no time. Don't give out free kamas just like that without thinking that you just multiplied the economy by 10. It would be better if you guys could make a quest to kill 5 wodents in incarnam and then the prize would be 100 kamas or someting like that. That way people would be used to, and will know about kamas and how they work early in the game, instead of flooding Astrub asking about where can they get "money" and being poor for the rest of the game and ultimately leaving WAKFU and not playing simply because the game was "too hard to understand".
The idea of having cents is just out of question for me, people will start selling everything at lets say 9.99 kamas lol, dumb.
And to PidgeonX I say: just because you are not a miner it doesn't mean that you wont have kamas. I was a miner only for a week so I could get kamas to travel to bonta using the ship and then when I had the bonta market zaap learned I started working on my profession and then selling my products in bonta or my own market and made lots of kamas, so that is not a valid point dude.


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2005-07-09
posté December 20, 2012, 17:43:57 | #6
Yes Churro, I know; sorry for whining about that, haha. Now mining seems so much easier than crafting/dropping items (besides, the Amakna market works good too!); of course it changes nothing, since you can now sell the items for 10x as much.

Another random thought: Dungeon bosses could leech off tax money from the clanmembers active in their area (to some extend). --or something like that, but balanced :p


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2011-05-20
posté December 20, 2012, 17:59:59 | #7
As much as I would like getting kamas from running dungeons if made too profitable, it might replace minting, because, to most people killing stuff is much more fun than mining, needs more thought.

I like the rest of the devblog, and thank you for the kwismas dosh. c:


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2006-11-11
posté December 20, 2012, 18:00:41 | #8
I can accept x10 idea - your explanation is clear for me.

But i don't like the idea of dungeon bosses drop kamas. Giving for free 200 k is horrible too.
Kamas should be only craftable. Resources, craft and selling should be the only way to gain money ingame.

Don't make another dofus. Why to give kamas for killing some boss? Boss drop(or not) eq - which you can sell and/or resources which you can sell or craft someting and sell. This way ppl willing to level their profesions.

Please dont screw something what works corect atm. Dont give us "empty" money.


posté December 20, 2012, 18:53:41 | #9
give me money or ill rage quit!!
*snout*


Speechless Crobak * Member Since 2011-06-28
posté December 20, 2012, 19:12:30 | #10
"We didn’t decide yet the amount of Kamas received, and we would actually like to have your opinion on this point."
Only receive kamas for the first 10 times defeating the boss, reduce this everytime.


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2007-12-03
posté December 20, 2012, 19:14:58 | #11
Azael
When will finalize the gathering professions?


This post has been edited by FoxCommanders - December 20, 2012, 19:16:30.
Soft Crackler * Member Since 2011-06-03
posté December 20, 2012, 19:21:30 | #12
I really wonder if this will go to the direction you (Ankama) want it to. The basic of economics (I don't have to be an expert to know) is that if you increase the amount of money available in the economy (or the supply of money), prices will be inflated. So x10 amount of kamas earned from crafting, though on the one hand will reduce the true cost of boat and Zapp, on the other hand will make items in market being sold at much higher price. Something being sold at 1,000K now will gradually be priced at 1,500K, 2,000K, etc. If there is a lack of immediate supply of stronger equipment to stabilize the price, current top-tier items, for their rarity will have their prices increased tremendously.

Don't think wrong. I really welcome this change as at least, it gives a satisfying feeling of carrying a large amount of cash instead of just 1-2 digits.

About the potential amount of Kamas dropped from bosses. Because the true worth of Kama will be decreased with this change, I think a decent amount should be rewarded. 10K per member of a party for the kiwi dungeon can be a good start. Lvl 60-70 dungeon should give 100-300K per member. Level 80-90 dungeon should give 300-500K and UB should give 800K-1000K. The numbers look big but they are nothing to the potential amount of Kamas a player can produce from mining in this new system.

Don't worry about multi-account players as it is an inherent problem. Even if you make the reward a fixed total amount to be divided between party members, it will still benefit a multi-account player the same way as making the reward a fixed amount per party member. So instead of punishing solo player for having 1 account, just let the multi-account player be awarded for what he paid for.


This post has been edited by Resonate - December 20, 2012, 19:31:21.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-03-25
posté December 20, 2012, 19:26:34 | #13
And to make it even better, we decided to help you by giving you Kamas during the Kwismas period! All players with an active subscription between December 25th and 27th will receive 200 Kamas in the days following this period…


Will this apply to every character on the subscribed account or just 200 kamas per account?


~ Kanade
 


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté December 20, 2012, 20:01:09 | #14
Good lord, can you people maybe hire an economy specialist for this?

You cannot create a stable economy where people can print their own money.

That assumption is a fatal flaw and it is the premise of your entire economic system. So the economy is ultimately doomed to fail.



P.S.: Making the game more p2w I see, hm? Why aren't you at least honest about it and label it as such. Then people might as well buy kamas directly for real money and those of us who are sane can leave the game forever.


Featherless Piwi * Member Since 2012-11-19
posté December 20, 2012, 20:01:15 | #15
are you guys stupid or what? never heard of inflation?

by far this game has one of the best graphic designer and and the worsk braindead game designer. and i've been workign in the industry over 9 years now.

soon the single uf item could cost a millin kama, what a dumb move?


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2012-08-28
posté December 20, 2012, 20:12:14 | #16
I hate wakfu same another mmorpg games when kamas drop from boss, quest or anything but before i see video wakfu dev diary i very like about dev says kamas from player to player and not drop from monster or quest very different with another game and i love itsee this video Click here
if kamas drop from monster(or bosses of monster) or quest (like another mmo) and all player thinking about why we must mining a ore this very boring or sell a item to another player need much time for get money and if it sold
sory about my speak english bad
make wakfu is game very life
player have much of kamas or rich and it is hard work a players, spend much time for play wakfu. if u lazy player wakfu is game not suitable for u


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-03-25
posté December 20, 2012, 20:12:32 | #17

Quote (Azael @ 20 December 2012 16:55) *
We’re aware of the two main issues the economy is facing:
  • (in)accessibility to Kamas,
  • Huge gap between rich and poor.

To make it simple, the harder it is to get a Kama, the higher its value.

Since we don’t have Kama “cents”, even a 1 Kama cost is expensive to our low level players.

This tends to lower the prices, or even make some resources impossible to sell because they’re deemed too “common”.

Therefore, we must act on the accessibility of Kamas to increase granularity of our economy. Here’s what we plan to do:
  • Increase the profitability of Kamas crafts,
  • Add the possibility to loot Kamas on bosses (wait until you read the rest of the article!)
This is all great and I'm pretty sure allot of players will appreciate this modification yet i still cant help but feel that the same issues will keep reoccurring..

I am a former Dofus player and i practically lived there for quite a few years and the problem there (even thou kama's were way more accessible) was the fact that people kept letting prices go sky high. Buying bread etc. became ridiculous, too many people overcharged for items bringing down the value of kamas. Yet this isn't Dofus and i would really like for it not to (economically) turn into Dofus.

So by making money more accessible to Wakfu players is wonderful and i am pretty sure all of us were waiting for good news about that yet somehow more money equals higher prices (yet again).
I know player economy plays a pretty big part in this game yet "middle class" or "poor" players tend to suffer, this promising new kama upgrade cannot prevent that.. so the problem remains.

My suggestion Ankama, is that you set an appropriate "kama cap" on items assuring that players use the economy more fairly while also keeping the economy more balanced. There can even be this option for the Governors, making their roles in nations more important since there is still the issue about Governors not being able to control much in a nation.

An example : 1 Gobbread = 1 - 5 kamas, so the player can ask anything from 1 kama - 5 kamas for the 1 Gobbread. (its just an example so i didn't put too much thought into the actual pricing yet i assume paying someone 20 kamas for just one bread would be a bit silly.)

I'm aware that implementing such a system would be so much work but this is just a suggestion. I really hope that Wakfu's markets wont end up like the Dofus markets had. To be honest, i think its not about how many kamas we have or are able to collect but more about what 1 single kama can benefit us with.

~ Kanade


This post has been edited by AngelicPorcelain - December 20, 2012, 20:15:29.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2005-07-09
posté December 20, 2012, 20:13:00 | #18
I understand the dissatisfaction with some things said, but flaming isn't the solution guys. By the way, in stead of doing things x10, why not divide things by 10? Make Ankies next to the Kamas. 1 Ank being worth 1/10 of a Kama? -just another random quick brainstorm idea-

Btw, I kind of agree with Shaleighs PS; please don't make the game play 2 win. If you really NEED more money I'd rather pay more for subscription than p2w.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2008-07-11
posté December 20, 2012, 20:16:47 | #19
The whole crafting your own money idea has always been somewhat of an eyeroll inducing move. But at least the game makes it so no item can be sold to an NPC for cash, and promotes trading.

However, as others mentioned before: How can you ever think this would be a sustainable thing. Changing the recipes around a bit might ease the entry into kama, but it won't shorten the divide between the rich and poor at all.

You can count the ways to remove kama from the game on a single hand:

Zaap/Ship costs

Taxes for Government

and the few mobs that suck 1 kama (do snoofles even suck kama anymore or is it just Hammershark now...)


Once people have their 'final equipment' or whatever, that's it. No repairing equipment or buying new ones because of durability. They can accumulate money faster than they spend it.


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2012-03-05
posté December 20, 2012, 20:18:14 | #20

Quote (Shaleigh1 @ 20 December 2012 20:01) *
Good lord, can you people maybe hire an economy specialist for this?

You cannot create a stable economy where people can print their own money.

That assumption is a fatal flaw and it is the premise of your entire economic system. So the economy is ultimately doomed to fail.



P.S.: Making the game more p2w I see, hm? Why aren't you at least honest about it and label it as such. Then people might as well buy kamas directly for real money and those of us who are sane can leave the game forever.

I can only think of one MMO that has an in-house economist, and that's EVE Online.

At any rate, I look forward to being able to spend 5000 kama on a loaf of Farle Bread. Let's just go maximum Weimar Republic.


This post has been edited by DroneSA - December 20, 2012, 20:21:27.