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Shu'Far Away From Home
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2012-02-16
posté January 18, 2014, 01:53:20 | #41
Ankama hear our cries: Make Multimen drop as well. From what I've read, you have the audacity to make them cost keys in dungeons while they don't drop, only have 100 PP and probably this is even bugged as they "leave" battle?


Make them drop and they will truly be sidekicks (helpers) or else they are trash. You can't take them into dungeons because they don't drop. You can't do Otomai because they don't drop. Why do you make things only halfway?

Thank you for your time. This next update will be very important for me. I'm with you guys from the begining. I've subbed for 6 months to get Lumino after I got the impression this was the only way to get it given to me by you - and now its judgement time. Don't screw up this time.


A fan.
Condestavel.


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2009-06-10
posté January 18, 2014, 01:57:43 | #42
Am i missing the level cap increase or is it not being posted or is it not happening? it's redic i can spend all my time and not only get no drops per fight, but also no xp..

what about kitskill bonus for mm


posté January 18, 2014, 02:18:14 | #43
Another annoying thing with key nerf is that if a member of the group leaves mid dung, you will not simply be able to replace them with a sidekick. I would assume you could leave the dung and add but that would cost yet another key -.- Seriously, the awful 100pp, combined with the fact that they cannot drop items that you have already dropped means that they're useless for low-mid lvl dungeons and not strong enough for epic lvl dungeons so you're left with a limited number of dungeons they're actually useful for.


The Sinister Six * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté January 18, 2014, 02:46:08 | #44
I'm gonna bust Ankama's kneecaps.

Can you fix Croquette on Ultimate Bosses already?


posté January 18, 2014, 02:48:29 | #45

Quote (Moongrove89 @ 18 January 2014 00:50) *
Sabi, I don't want to complain since this is a work in progress, but the devs mentioned in the November Letter to the Community that all Player summons (including Sadida Dolls) were going to be modified so that the Player controls them instead of an A.I..

Is it possible to check with the devs to see if they are indeed working on allowing us to control all summons, especially Sadida Dolls? (personally, I don't care about Osa Summons, so it's fine if those remain inept). This will greatly enhance my game play experiences, so I'm highly concerned as to whether this modification will make it into this update.

Thank you in advance.
yeah..what happened with this? or any other sadida changes they mention but never make

  • Azael said we could control dolls by end of last year
  • Grou said he's going to make bramble armor better or so that its similar/different than feca shield
  • Sabi/Troyle said they would look at doll summoning AP (how does an ultra powerful cost 6AP and a greedy costs 4AP?). And all of osa's pets costs 3AP..what happened to the AP math Grou uses, uses it for sadida and not for osa?



This post has been edited by Neneko88i - January 18, 2014, 02:49:01.
Short Strich * Member Since 2014-01-13
posté January 18, 2014, 03:24:55 | #46
That experience bonus - can't wait!


Ancient Eradicator * Member Since 2008-06-09
posté January 18, 2014, 03:27:06 | #47

Quote (Neneko88i @ 18 January 2014 02:48) *
  • Sabi/Troyle said they would look at doll summoning AP (how does an ultra powerful cost 6AP and a greedy costs 4AP?). And all of osa's pets costs 3AP..what happened to the AP math Grou uses, uses it for sadida and not for osa?
I do not think you are taking into consideration the major difference between the two types of summoning. Dolls are spammable summons that can be summoned over and over again while Osamodas can only use up to 5 summons per fight, with the same summon only being summoned twice. Also, if the Osamodas wants to use two summons the player will have to give up a ton of other stats to receive 9 Control, and even with 9 Control the Osamodas can only summon two weaker summons rather than one much more powerful summon, when the already more powerful summon is extremely weakened by the Gobgob. Being spammable, Sadida's summons have the ability to cover the map and blocking LoS and the like if they are not destroyed, which leads to you not receiving damage since the opponent might have to destroy them, while an Osamodas can not do that really. There is a reason why no one plays Summoner Osamodas really anymore. There is much more to calculating the AP Cost than simply base damage and the like.


posté January 18, 2014, 03:41:33 | #48

Quote (GodIsWithUs @ 18 January 2014 03:27) *

Quote (Neneko88i @ 18 January 2014 02:48) *
  • Sabi/Troyle said they would look at doll summoning AP (how does an ultra powerful cost 6AP and a greedy costs 4AP?). And all of osa's pets costs 3AP..what happened to the AP math Grou uses, uses it for sadida and not for osa?
I do not think you are taking into consideration the major difference between the two types of summoning. Dolls are spammable summons that can be summoned over and over again while Osamodas can only use up to 5 summons per fight, with the same summon only being summoned twice. Also, if the Osamodas wants to use two summons the player will have to give up a ton of other stats to receive 9 Control, and even with 9 Control the Osamodas can only summon two weaker summons rather than one much more powerful summon, when the already more powerful summon is extremely weakened by the Gobgob. Being spammable, Sadida's summons have the ability to cover the map and blocking LoS and the like if they are not destroyed, which leads to you not receiving damage since the opponent might have to destroy them, while an Osamodas can not do that really. There is a reason why no one plays Summoner Osamodas really anymore. There is much more to calculating the AP Cost than simply base damage and the like.
That doesn't explain how dolls still used to cost 4-6ap before the revamp when dolls didn't give back wp and had a lot less hp/resists than osa pets. Btw most dolls die the very first turn you summon them or the next. You're limited to two per turn. Only doll you're referring to is the blocker doll (they dodge all other dolls like nothing). and 2 per turn is no different from 2 osa summons per turn. You also forgot phoenix spirit and how osa pets have the same or more hp as a regular class while blocker dolls barely get to 500hp and 1mp, and never run to the right target and even walk away from the right target.


This post has been edited by Neneko88i - January 18, 2014, 03:42:42.
Ancient Eradicator * Member Since 2008-06-09
posté January 18, 2014, 04:02:38 | #49

Quote (Neneko88i @ 18 January 2014 03:41) *

Quote (GodIsWithUs @ 18 January 2014 03:27) *

Quote (Neneko88i @ 18 January 2014 02:48) *
  • Sabi/Troyle said they would look at doll summoning AP (how does an ultra powerful cost 6AP and a greedy costs 4AP?). And all of osa's pets costs 3AP..what happened to the AP math Grou uses, uses it for sadida and not for osa?
I do not think you are taking into consideration the major difference between the two types of summoning. Dolls are spammable summons that can be summoned over and over again while Osamodas can only use up to 5 summons per fight, with the same summon only being summoned twice. Also, if the Osamodas wants to use two summons the player will have to give up a ton of other stats to receive 9 Control, and even with 9 Control the Osamodas can only summon two weaker summons rather than one much more powerful summon, when the already more powerful summon is extremely weakened by the Gobgob. Being spammable, Sadida's summons have the ability to cover the map and blocking LoS and the like if they are not destroyed, which leads to you not receiving damage since the opponent might have to destroy them, while an Osamodas can not do that really. There is a reason why no one plays Summoner Osamodas really anymore. There is much more to calculating the AP Cost than simply base damage and the like.
That doesn't explain how dolls still used to cost 4-6ap before the revamp when dolls didn't give back wp and had a lot less hp/resists than osa pets. Btw most dolls die the very first turn you summon them or the next. You're limited to two per turn. Only doll you're referring to is the blocker doll (they dodge all other dolls like nothing). and 2 per turn is no different from 2 osa summons per turn. You also forgot phoenix spirit and how osa pets have the same or more hp as a regular class while blocker dolls barely get to 500hp and 1mp, and never run to the right target and even walk away from the right target.
All I can do is shake my head. You totally did not read what I told you, and you bring up some irrelevent point about how much dolls cost prior to Sadida revamp. Spam summoning is different from summoning that regulates you to one summon or 2 weaker summons at the cost of a lot of stats. You are completely blind to how various types of summoning work. Spam summoning uses a lot more apparant math due to the less restrictions that it has compared to a very finite summoning. I am just going to end this because you obviously are too blind to see the difference in why the costs were how they were.

If left unharmed, a swarm of small creatures can take down a strong opponent.


Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2006-04-28
posté January 18, 2014, 04:16:42 | #50

Quote (Pokiehls @ 17 January 2014 19:20) *

Quote (Sabi @ 17 January 2014 07:00) *
Dungeons Dungeon Keys: Entering a dungeon will consume a key per Sidekick in your group (from the owner of the Sidekick/s).
How will this work on Hushed Dungeon?
Sidekick don't receive Haikus from the other 3 dungeons, making it impossible to get them a key per run.

I hope these specific cases are taken into consideration.

Also:
  • +Range attribute on equipment not working on sidekicks.
  • Bugged Zwombbits.
  • Multimen leaving battles randomly.
  • Relic Fragment drops bugged at boss rooms.

Are any of these bugs getting fixed?

Strongly agree! In addition, these sidekicks are no where near as good as a real player. I feel like I am being penalized for taking them to fill the void when real people are not available. Also, it is not as if they get their own drops, though they supposedly give the owner an extra roll, why make them use keys?


posté January 18, 2014, 04:40:05 | #51
Im not a sadida or an osa, but if dolls are meant for spams, shouldn't they cost less due to their fragility? Or atleast be able to survive for a little bit longer given their costs? Spending all my ap for something that is likely to die in one turn seems unreasonable. But alas, this has been a little derailed.

Im very disappointed to see an incomplete prospecting update ///faints///


Featherless Piwi * Member Since 2010-12-21
posté January 18, 2014, 05:33:16 | #52
Any plans for the level cap? The server population seems to have dropped steeply since everyone's bored of being 140
I also recall the last update mentioning something future changes to the drop system- any news on that or changes to pp? A very disgruntled enu would like to know (at least make it so I don't drop enu pp candy or can at least trade them because I have HUNDREDS)


posté January 18, 2014, 05:56:04 | #53
Why are old things that were put off not done? Why are new things planned then put off as well?


posté January 18, 2014, 06:24:17 | #54

Quote (Varanel @ 18 January 2014 05:33) *
I also recall the last update mentioning something future changes to the drop system- any news on that or changes to pp? A very disgruntled enu would like to know (at least make it so I don't drop enu pp candy or can at least trade them because I have HUNDREDS)

Quote

Quote
no craft/drop rates revamp? pretty disappointing. I guess the xp thing is pretty good.
As far as the craft revamp, we will be sharing a devblog very soon but the revamp itself will not be part of the February Game Update.

Im assuming when sabi says "as far as the craft revamp" this includes the pp update. Could we get a confirmation for whether or not this will be the case.


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - January 18, 2014, 06:25:23.
posté January 18, 2014, 08:16:08 | #55

Quote (GodIsWithUs @ 18 January 2014 04:02) *
All I can do is shake my head. You totally did not read what I told you, and you bring up some irrelevent point about how much dolls cost prior to Sadida revamp. Spam summoning is different from summoning that regulates you to one summon or 2 weaker summons at the cost of a lot of stats. You are completely blind to how various types of summoning work. Spam summoning uses a lot more apparant math due to the less restrictions that it has compared to a very finite summoning. I am just going to end this because you obviously are too blind to see the difference in why the costs were how they were.

If left unharmed, a swarm of small creatures can take down a strong opponent.
I sense a jealous osa who wants to spam..
Read what I wrote to soundtrack and hopefully you can understand it. Maybe you're the one being blinded. If you didn't understand that's your problem, no matter how much little/much AP dolls cost you will always summon 2 per turn. The swarm is the same. What we want is to be able to use our element spells the same turn we summon a doll and not spend every turn replacing dolls with 80%-90% of our AP. Azael considered it and it makes sense that a weak 200-300hp doll (ultra powerful) shoudl cost weak AP. This is not complicated 


Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 18 January 2014 04:40) *
Im not a sadida or an osa, but if dolls are meant for spams, shouldn't they cost less due to their fragility? Or atleast be able to survive for a little bit longer given their costs? Spending all my ap for something that is likely to die in one turn seems unreasonable. But alas, this has been a little derailed.

Im very disappointed to see an incomplete prospecting update ///faints///
Agree! We are still limited to two per turn..no matter how much or how little dolls costs we will always be limited to two per turn. So the swarming will always be the same.

the issue with high AP cost is that then we have nothing else to do. How can an air sadida be effective when it takes them many turns (if they're lucky to have ultra powerful alive that second turn) if their summons cost so much AP? It should be that doll summoning is a something that's clear for all dolls and not something random where some of them don't make sense (2ap + earthquake for madoll?).


posté January 18, 2014, 09:14:47 | #56
thank you GodIsWithUs that explains and confirms my distress. I'm normally a very positive person but i am growing increasingly distressed with each of these major updates. everyone seems to want things for free, but leveling should be earned. just because i have 3 higher level characters doesn't mean i don't want to keep a character at a lower level to easier accompany newer players without sabotaging their experience gains or making them feel punished for being new. is this a ploy to make me purchase a separate subscription to keep from being caught in the XP cascade? I'm pleased with the enthusiasm Ankama takes in their creation but after more than a year it still feels like an eternal beta. I very much enjoy Wakfu so I will hold my hopes up and try to be constructive in my criticisms.


Ancient Eradicator * Member Since 2008-06-09
posté January 18, 2014, 15:57:30 | #57

Quote (Neneko88i @ 18 January 2014 08:16) *

Quote (GodIsWithUs @ 18 January 2014 04:02) *
All I can do is shake my head. You totally did not read what I told you, and you bring up some irrelevent point about how much dolls cost prior to Sadida revamp. Spam summoning is different from summoning that regulates you to one summon or 2 weaker summons at the cost of a lot of stats. You are completely blind to how various types of summoning work. Spam summoning uses a lot more apparant math due to the less restrictions that it has compared to a very finite summoning. I am just going to end this because you obviously are too blind to see the difference in why the costs were how they were.

If left unharmed, a swarm of small creatures can take down a strong opponent.
I sense a jealous osa who wants to spam..
Read what I wrote to soundtrack and hopefully you can understand it. Maybe you're the one being blinded. If you didn't understand that's your problem, no matter how much little/much AP dolls cost you will always summon 2 per turn. The swarm is the same. What we want is to be able to use our element spells the same turn we summon a doll and not spend every turn replacing dolls with 80%-90% of our AP. Azael considered it and it makes sense that a weak 200-300hp doll (ultra powerful) shoudl cost weak AP. This is not complicated
What you just said has nothing to do with what I play as, nor does it deal with you trying to make the Sadida dolls completely comparable to the cost of an Osa summon. It do agree that they need to buff the dolls somewhat, but that is not the point I was making. Also, I play a Gobgob Osa, and have since the first day of revamp unlike all these new ones that use them solely for DP, so I can care little about whether or not Summoner Osamodas can summon spam. Osamodas has three completely different classes in one class, and I have nothing to do with summoning. The point is in the initial quote I quoted you were saying they need to use pretty much the same math for the Osamodas pet as they did for the dolls, which is completely ignorant. Thus, you cannot call me blind since I replied to you about you wanting to Osamodas summonings to use the same math as the Dolls, which is not possible due to the difference in summoning. You completely ignored that, and started mentioning buffing Sadidas, which was not even the point. So who is the blind one really, the person who stays on topic or the person who wants to make every post about buffing Sadidas which was never my point in the first place, and which I never said I was against thus making it pointless to talk to me about buffing when I am actually for it. Here is why you sound ignorant when it comes to trying to use the same math for Osamodas summonings as Dolls:

Hunter (Summoner Osamodas) vs Zergs (Sadida)

The Summoner Osamodas is the prototypical Hunter class that you will find in any other MMO. They have a very finite summoning, both in the number they can have out at one time and throughout the battle. They can summon one decent summoning and be a decent damage dealer themselves. On the other hand, for a very high tradeoff in stats, they can summon two weaker summonings and be a weaker damage dealer themselves. Hence, the Osa gets severly penalized for having more than one summoning, while the Sadida does not get penalized if they want numerous dolls. Secondly, like the Hunter, the Osamodas is the main target for the opponent, and the summoning should not be dealt with. The passives of the Osamodas, except for one, emphasize this through rebirth, healing at death, and reflect. Thus, like the Hunter, it is rather unnecessary to attack the pet since you are only penalizing yourself. Also, the summoning acts as part of the Osa, meaning that the Osa is severely weakened without one, compared to the Sadida which once it gets to a certain number of dolls the dolls after that certain number are not part of the Sadida but rather a bonus, which I will mention later on. In summary, the Osamodas is a Hunter.

Meanwhile, the Sadida functions as a sort of creator of Zergs. small weak creatures that are weak by themselves but powerful when left unharmed and in large number. Sadidas have a rather 'infinite' spamming of dolls, though regulated to two per a turn due to the massive potential of spamming. Hence, that is the first difference between the builds. The Osamodas cannot keep making summonings, while the Sadida can have up to a large number at 6. Being spammable, there are a lot of benefits that come with it. Dolls can block an opponent's path as well as LoS. Also, as previously mentioned, any number past a certain number of dolls is seen as a bonus. So let us pretend that two dolls make Sadidas balanced and thus those two dolls are part of the Sadida, anything more than two is seen as a bonus. The opponent should know this, and thus will attack both the dolls and Sadida since by keeping the dolls unharmed the Sadida will be extremely powerful. There is also an advantage to opponents targeting dolls as well, since it helps prevent the Sadida from taking all the damage from the opponent. Also, the reason they are fragile is to prevent massive potential spamming, along with the two per a turn limit. So to balance out this issue of dolls being too spammable, they thought that something like the cost of a dolls should equal that of a doll's damage in one turn + the amount of AP it takes to kill a doll, which theoretically works on paper. In summary, the Sadida is a spamming summoner that uses Zergs.

So in summary, you are definitely the blind one since you derailed from the topic I initially proposed. You mentioned that Osamodas pets and Sadida dolls should use the similar math, and I tried to point that out to you that they cannot due to vastly different takes on summoning, but you pretty much derailed from that and talked a whole lot more about buffing the Dolls rather than staying on topic and talking about cost of Osamodas pets vs Sadida dolls. So, again, do not derail from the topic. Sadidas and Osamodas can not be similar in terms of math due to how vastly different their summoning is. You are comparing apples to oranges. Also, do not derail and talk about buffing dolls and saying how another person is against it when you do not know that. I am for a small buff, but Ankama needs to be very cautious about how they go about that buff due to the potential of spam summoning. The smallest of buffs for small summoning can make a large difference. AP reduction or HP buff can have massive consequences. If they reduce the AP too low, the doll will be too powerful for its cost since the amount of damage a dolls does + the amount of AP it takes to kill it might be too great compared to what it takes to summon it, which as massive consequences in terms of imbalance. HP buff is similar to that. Ankama cannot make the cost too high because it would not be worth summoning, or too low because it would lead to significant imbalance and make the Sadida very powerful. Balancing spam summoning needs extreme caution. But anyhow, you cannot compare the Osamodas summoning cost to the Sadida doll cost because the summonings are completely different, just how two DPTs can be extremely different.

In short, balancing spam summoning is very tricky and needs caution, and just because two classes can summon does not meant they are the same in terms of summoning.


Short Strich * Member Since 2006-03-18
posté January 18, 2014, 16:13:46 | #58

Quote (DeMetz88 @ 18 January 2014 01:53) *
Ankama hear our cries: Make Multimen drop as well. From what I've read, you have the audacity to make them cost keys in dungeons while they don't drop, only have 100 PP and probably this is even bugged as they "leave" battle?


Make them drop and they will truly be sidekicks (helpers) or else they are trash. You can't take them into dungeons because they don't drop. You can't do Otomai because they don't drop. Why do you make things only halfway?

Thank you for your time. This next update will be very important for me. I'm with you guys from the begining. I've subbed for 6 months to get Lumino after I got the impression this was the only way to get it given to me by you - and now its judgement time. Don't screw up this time.


A fan.
Condestavel.
Wow, if you read the release notes, it never said it was going to do what your asking for. What makes you feel so special you think you need drops from multimen, if you want more drops pay for more accounts, or get some friends, join a guild that helps you. This isn't a pay to win game.

It's funny to me how people think everything should be free, and that they don't have to work for rewards. Get mad rage quit go find some Korean mmo you can buy your way through in a week.


posté January 18, 2014, 17:24:22 | #59
As anyone who has played a few games in krosmaster can tell, sadidas / osas / rogues / any class that could send out a bunch of summons could swing the entire match in their favour. Spamming the field is a strategy just as supporting one summon through your branch spells is, but by the looks of sadida spells I dont know if it can be done well. While a 2 per turn limit on dolls seems fair, its not like they can bypass this anyway. A bit poop for spamming I think as you cant alter the summons until the next turn when you know. theyre dead? :l (keep max at 2, lower cost?)


Quote
Experience bonus for secondary characters

Will this work at all with multimen?
(sorry if theres already a seperate system for multimen, this is from someone with 0 experience with them)


Quote
Feca: Class revamp

*Cough any updates on changes / when we can test on beta server cough*
I also feel appropriate to ask if someone could give a rundown on how testing classes in beta servers works. Items / Stat points / Levels etc. Do we start over from level 1 or get free roam / customization? :s

Also, some players have some.. concerns.. with the challenges in fights. Any chance we could see some changes to these, reward for difficulty is often skewed in certain challenges. (also getting stunned will insta fail half the challenges out there, not cool bruddah :X)

This was a reasonably successful thread / initiative
Click here
Will we see future threads similar to it, or is it still being updated?


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - January 18, 2014, 17:29:38.
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-10-04
posté January 18, 2014, 17:48:06 | #60

Quote (Pokiehls @ 17 January 2014 19:20) *
Also:
  • +Range attribute on equipment not working on sidekicks.
  • Bugged Zwombbits.
  • Multimen leaving battles randomly.
  • Relic Fragment drops bugged at boss rooms.

Are any of these bugs getting fixed?

+1

After giving us the small update in december and no update at all in january, Ankama could at least fix the bugs they brought with their december-content. Especially regarding the sidekicks - the new feature we were advertisment-spammed about, because it's so great.


Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 18 January 2014 17:24) *
This was a reasonably successful thread / initiative
Click here
Will we see future threads similar to it, or is it still being updated?


They never updated the list by including bugs that were reported in the same thread. It was just a list of bugs they already decided to handle but everything that was reported afterwards - and they even asked us to report additional bugs in the thread - was simply totally ignored.


This post has been edited by Elithril - January 18, 2014, 17:51:13.