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Basic F2P suggestions
Soft Crackler * Member Since 2006-03-20
posté September 04, 2012, 09:36:43 | #1
Basic F2P suggestions Disclaimer, I'll probably just be echoing the words of a lot of other individuals.

I know there has been a lot of talk about a completely F2P game, however it's both unlikely to happen and also extremely horrible for a sandbox game like this, in my opinion. So naturally I've been thinking about how to make the game better for F2P players without damaging the nature of the game and making it a generic pay2win.

Lets get right into it, shall we?

Some ideas:

- F2P players should have access to all professions, which are capped at say 30. Why? Because it allows new players to experience the gathering and crafting system. This would mean revamping F2P monster mats and creating recipes from said mats, but it's worth it. It gives them something to do once the novelty of "SLAY-ALL-THE-THINGS!" has died off. That being said minting kamas would be inaccessible, so bots cannot simply farm ore, mint kamas and sell them for real life money.

The next logical step would be..

- F2P players should be allowed to trade. Why? Because all of the F2P mats / gear etc is junk and P2P players have no real need for it. It makes exchanging keys easier for those pesky dungeons and generally promotes teamwork. Furthermore if F2P players have access to all the professions, it would be handy to trade wares. F2P players can have a bartering system, meaning, they trade item for item, not kamas for items. NOTE this could be a problem as bots might start selling mats.. a countermeasure would be the restriction of such exchanging between F2P players.

- F2P players should have access to a few more dungeons, namely Piwi. Why? Because adding a few extra things to do will entice F2P players to subscribe and also help prevent boredom. A few options would be; creating 4 new dungeons to reflect the 4 nations with the Astrub equivalent monsters inhabiting them. Or just throwing in some new monsters and creating a few more general dungeons (I would like to see larva dungeon again.. like in beta long ago )

- I think there should be a short trial period of, say, a day or two once a F2P player completes a lengthy quest (to deter bots). This allows F2P players to have a taste of what it's like to be P2P without giving them copious amounts of time to wreak havoc on the ecosystem / political system. Or maybe a controlled state of P2P can be created, where the political system is completely out of reach or an individual can only do so much in a single day e.g. cut down 20 trees, to lessen the environmental damage.

I'm getting bored with all of this typing, but I'll resume whenever I feel motivated.


This post has been edited by Zadistforlife - September 04, 2012, 09:38:23.
Short Strich * Member Since 2011-10-06
posté September 04, 2012, 23:36:37 | #2
I really think that f2p players should choose their professions, and the chosen ones would not have a level cap.
And they should have access to nation's areas. I mean, Astrub is not fun, and it's the ecosystem that makes this game kind of unique. Removing it would make the game a lot more generic, and there are a lot better generic and free games out there.


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2006-03-20
posté September 05, 2012, 00:27:34 | #3

Quote (Tolquius @ 04 September 2012 23:36) *
I really think that f2p players should choose their professions, and the chosen ones would not have a level cap.
And they should have access to nation's areas. I mean, Astrub is not fun, and it's the ecosystem that makes this game kind of unique. Removing it would make the game a lot more generic, and there are a lot better generic and free games out there.


In Dofus F2P players have access to most profession at a cap. If they have access to all uncapped professions Ankama couldn't claim it as a benefit for subscribing . That being said it wouldn't be a horrible idea, purely because there will only be so much you can do with Astrub mats before needing to sub in order to progress further.
I disagree giving F2P all the content, that's why they sub for. You've basically made the game completely F2P with both suggestions paired together (ability to max profs paired with ability to travel everywhere). The idea behind giving them limited content means they might be swayed to subscribe. That being said developing a new area which is F2P and allows individuals to plant / harvest etc so they get a feel for the whole ecosystem thing is an interesting idea.


Short Strich * Member Since 2011-10-06
posté September 05, 2012, 02:35:47 | #4
Give the subscribers other bonuses. Like having ALL the professions uncapped, and not only some chosen ones.
People would subscribe because they would like the game, not because they would need to subscribe just to KNOW the game. Since the ecosystem is a important part of the game, it should be f2p.


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2006-03-20
posté September 05, 2012, 03:58:18 | #5

Quote (Tolquius @ 05 September 2012 02:35) *
Give the subscribers other bonuses. Like having ALL the professions uncapped, and not only some chosen ones.
People would subscribe because they would like the game, not because they would need to subscribe just to KNOW the game. Since the ecosystem is a important part of the game, it should be f2p.

Once again, this thread isn't for the promotion of a completely F2P game. Why? Because it's pointless. Bots everywhere, destroyed ecosystem, politic system down the drain, more so .

A solution, as I said, would be creating some new content in the form of a F2P area where they can control the ecosystem and whatnot. I agree the ecosystem is what makes the game unique.. but I don't think allowing F2P players complete access is the solution, furthermore it's NEVER going to happen.. so suggesting things which might get a second look is ideal.


This post has been edited by Zadistforlife - September 05, 2012, 03:58:40.
Short Strich * Member Since 2011-10-06
posté September 05, 2012, 04:27:50 | #6

Quote (Zadistforlife @ 05 September 2012 03:58) *

Quote (Tolquius @ 05 September 2012 02:35) *
Give the subscribers other bonuses. Like having ALL the professions uncapped, and not only some chosen ones.
People would subscribe because they would like the game, not because they would need to subscribe just to KNOW the game. Since the ecosystem is a important part of the game, it should be f2p.

Once again, this thread isn't for the promotion of a completely F2P game. Why? Because it's pointless. Bots everywhere, destroyed ecosystem, politic system down the drain, more so .

A solution, as I said, would be creating some new content in the form of a F2P area where they can control the ecosystem and whatnot. I agree the ecosystem is what makes the game unique.. but I don't think allowing F2P players complete access is the solution, furthermore it's NEVER going to happen.. so suggesting things which might get a second look is ideal.
Can you clarify me why letting the f2p have acess of all the gameplay is equal to bots, destroyed ecosystem, politic system down the drain, and more?

After all, it is not the f2p players that makes pointless wars, aggro people for no reason (_Click here), and make the economy umbalanced. The problems you said already exist.


This post has been edited by Tolquius - September 05, 2012, 05:59:43.
Soft Crackler * Member Since 2006-03-20
posté September 05, 2012, 10:28:54 | #7
Do I honestly need to explain how a F2P game will attract bots who, in turn, will destroy the ecosystem on a larger scale? I thought it was pretty self explanatory. Individuals making new accounts just to rig politics is a problem already, now imagine that multiplied by a few 100.

You can't honestly think making the game F2P will sudden fix the things you mentioned, right? Sure they exist now, but they'll be much worse if the game was a dirty free for all.

Please, come back to me with some actual arguments if you want to resume this debate. It's pointless, but feel free.


Short Strich * Member Since 2011-10-06
posté September 05, 2012, 13:43:51 | #8
First of all, I said that f2p players should have access to all game mechanics. If they are experiencing the game, they should have the full experience before deciding to buy it. And as I said, without the ecosystem, Wakfu seems a lot more generic, and there are a lot of better generic MMOs out there.
And if it's not to experience the whole game, just remove the f2p option altogether, it seems unfair with the f2p players.

Secondly,I don't really see, again, how f2p = bots. I've played my share of f2p games, and not in all of them there were bots. And again, a subscriber can use bots too. If they can't, so there's a system to deny access to bots, and it would probably just deny access to f2p bots too. And, well: _Click here . As I said, there are already bots, so why not removing the p2p option too?

Thirdly, the problem is not the liquid ammount of people that rigs politics. It's the proportion. If the population of Wakfu is multiplied by a few 100 introducing a f2p system, and the number of accounts that rigs politics is multiplied by the same 100, then it's NOT a worse situation. In fact, since the population increased, I think it's a BETTER situation.
And you see, with more people, it's more difficult for the same group stays in power, since there's will more clash between groups.

And you see, the wars between nations never end because it's something that high lvl characters can do. Since there aren't enough players, it's difficult to go to a dungeon or etc, so they just agro other players and etc. This is one of the problems that a low population brings.

Another one is the economy. Since there aren't many players, you should wait hours JUST IN HOPE that someone sees you Heaven Bag, let alone buy something. So, the money doesn't flow. With more players, and especially, with more players that DON'T have access to all professions, economy would bloom - since those players WILL have to trade to acquire crafts from other professions.

And there's Sufokia too. Since it is the newest nation, the beta players - the majority of players playing today, since they tested the full game - probably just remained on the other three nations. As I saw in some threads, Sufokia don't have people to do anything.

You seems to forget that Wakfu is a community game. It does not work solo, and it does not work without people. Right now, Wakfu isn't working. If it would increase the population in a few 100, I would take the risk to encounter a few bots.

Your argument seems like "Let's not expand our city, because without planning that would be catastrophic. And more people = more problems". Well, let's just plan then and expand our community.

EDIT - And I don't understand your argument at all. Let's say the population increases in a few 100. But all the players are subscribers. As the problems already exist today, we can assume that the number of bots and people who rigs the politics would increase too. And that the new players can opt for destroying the ecosystem. So, by your argument, that would be a bad case too, right?


This post has been edited by Tolquius - September 05, 2012, 14:05:15.
Soft Crackler * Member Since 2006-03-20
posté September 05, 2012, 16:06:15 | #9

Quote
First of all, I said that f2p players should have access to all game mechanics. If they are experiencing the game, they should have the full experience before deciding to buy it. And as I said, without the ecosystem, Wakfu seems a lot more generic, and there are a lot of better generic MMOs out there.And if it's not to experience the whole game, just remove the f2p option altogether, it seems unfair with the f2p players.

They can have access to all the game mechanics... in Astrub and new F2P content, not the whole game, I know right, extremely complicated concept to grasp. They can create new content and throw the whole ecosystem into the mix, without the need to allow F2P players access to all the content. No F2P players = less subscribers, obviously. Removing F2P completely isn't the answer.



Quote
Secondly,I don't really see, again, how f2p = bots. I've played my share of f2p games, and not in all of them there were bots. And again, a subscriber can use bots too. If they can't, so there's a system to deny access to bots, and it would probably just deny access to f2p bots too. And, well: _Click here . As I said, there are already bots, so why not removing the p2p option too?

F2P = bots because there's no need to sub. I've played my fair share of F2P games as well.. and most of them had bots. A subscriber can use bots indeed, mostly for personal gain. Dofus has P2P bots now that the ogrine system is in place.. but there's measures being taken against it. It's common sense really. Having to pay for a game and risk having your subbed char banned = deter bots.



Quote
Thirdly, the problem is not the liquid ammount of people that rigs politics. It's the proportion. If the population of Wakfu is multiplied by a few 100 introducing a f2p system, and the number of accounts that rigs politics is multiplied by the same 100, then it's NOT a worse situation. In fact, since the population increased, I think it's a BETTER situation.And you see, with more people, it's more difficult for the same group stays in power, since there's will more clash between groups.

I honestly couldn't care less for politics, as long as my person gaming isn't extremely damaged by it. I suppose you're right in this sense, but this isn't reason enough to make the game F2P.


Quote
And you see, the wars between nations never end because it's something that high lvl characters can do. Since there aren't enough players, it's difficult to go to a dungeon or etc, so they just agro other players and etc. This is one of the problems that a low population brings.

Wars are wars, they mean making a non-aligned character to invite individuals into groups and restrict trading some, big whoop. As a non-pvper war doesn't really do much for me, and the constant wars haven't interrupted my Wakfu experience, honestly. A higher population won't automatically mean an end to wars, by the way.


Quote
Another one is the economy. Since there aren't many players, you should wait hours JUST IN HOPE that someone sees you Heaven Bag, let alone buy something. So, the money doesn't flow. With more players, and especially, with more players that DON'T have access to all professions, economy would bloom - since those players WILL have to trade to acquire crafts from other professions.

That's untrue, Heaven Bags located in Major shopping districts are often checked for wares.. I know this because I see people doing it, and also do so myself. This is more a matter of supply and demand. Just because nobody wants your piwi set, it doesn't mean the economy is in the shitter. CAPPED professions, you know what a cap is right? If an individual can't access all professions according to your idea, well, make an alt and there you go! Problem solved! So I fail to see how this will suddenly make the economy stable etc.


Quote
And there's Sufokia too. Since it is the newest nation, the beta players - the majority of players playing today, since they tested the full game - probably just remained on the other three nations. As I saw in some threads, Sufokia don't have people to do anything.

I'm from Sufokia myself, and I agree, our market is bad and our population is low. This probably has something to do with Dofus and how Bonta / Brak are the two big (and only) players. Given time we'll see Sufokia grow, we just need the right individual in power. Furthermore grouping with people from other nations is always an option.



Quote
You seems to forget that Wakfu is a community game. It does not work solo, and it does not work without people. Right now, Wakfu isn't working. If it would increase the population in a few 100, I would take the risk to encounter a few bots.

Is it? I run 3 accounts and get by just fine. I've joined a big guild and now have individuals to run things with. The population will grow with time, as most MMOs do. If Ankama got off their arse and released new content once a month Wakfu would be a beehive of activity, but nope. Clearly you don't know how bots work xD.


Quote
Your argument seems like "Let's not expand our city, because without planning that would be catastrophic. And more people = more problems". Well, let's just plan then and expand our community.

My argument is F2P Wakfu will never happen, so people should really stop dreaming / complaining about it. Focusing on improving F2P content, however, is an option and will result in more players and eventually subscribers.


Quote
EDIT - And I don't understand your argument at all. Let's say the population increases in a few 100. But all the players are subscribers. As the problems already exist today, we can assume that the number of bots and people who rigs the politics would increase too. And that the new players can opt for destroying the ecosystem. So, by your argument, that would be a bad case too, right?

Twisting my words is simply that, twisting my words. Number of bots will increase? Probably, but they'll be actual players who bot at the mines or something, and will hopefully be banned.. not bots going around harvesting everything. Rigged politics was just an example, don't take it too literally. I care little about politics, but sure, more people = more corruption. Likewise more players = more Eco-terrorists.
My point IS F2P won't happen, simply because Ankama will NEVER operate like that. You're beating a dead horse. You might have good ideas, but they'll fall on deaf ears.


Short Strich * Member Since 2011-10-06
posté September 05, 2012, 20:22:16 | #10

Quote
F2P = bots because there's no need to sub. I've played my fair share of F2P games as well.. and most of them had bots. A subscriber can use bots indeed, mostly for personal gain. Dofus has P2P bots now that the ogrine system is in place.. but there's measures being taken against it. It's common sense really. Having to pay for a game and risk having your subbed char banned = deter bots.

I think a good measure to deter bots is an efficient anti-bot program. We cannot think in measures that supports laziness too.


Quote
Twisting my words is simply that, twisting my words. Number of bots will increase? Probably, but they'll be actual players who bot at the mines or something, and will hopefully be banned.. not bots going around harvesting everything. Rigged politics was just an example, don't take it too literally. I care little about politics, but sure, more people = more corruption. Likewise more players = more Eco-terrorists.

I didn't understand the last part. More players = more Eco-terrorists, but this is independent if the players subscribe or not.
And I don't see why people would create bots that harvests everything while they would have nothing to gain from that. I agree with you that the number of people just "trolling" would increase in proportion, but what works best against bots is, like I said, an efficient anti-bot program.


Quote
Removing F2P completely isn't the answer.

Yeah, but right now, the F2P mode is making a bad advertisement of the game, and is making people go away, since they can do nothing without paying. That with the fact that they sell ogrines in packs that aren't multiple of anything, allied with the fact that ogrines expire, the subscribe interface is bugged, the game is expensive for a developing one, and they cannot buy play hours. And well,some other things.
And I really don't think that Astrub has every game mechanics. I don't like killing Bow Meows forever.


This post has been edited by Tolquius - September 06, 2012, 01:59:52.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-03-04
posté September 06, 2012, 16:04:55 | #11
well, it would be nice if the things you collected while a f2p were useable.
its all well and good to tell us 'well you got to try the eco side by planting gobbals up in incarnum, and gathering stuff in astrub...u want moar, pay up' but its not realy trying the whole game out.

there does need to be more options. not just becasue most players cannot truly decide if there is enough to warrent the (currently) stupidly high needed amounts for some of us to sub (becasue of other restrictions, some of us are left with only large amounts of sub rather than a week or a month at a time. thats another issue for another thread)

currently, your *trial* as a froobie for the ecosystem is to plant gobbals up in Incarnum. thats it prety much, becasue to trial planting plants, you have to have subbed to get the herbalist to even talk to you without calling you a scrub.
you can try harvesting but anything you gather is worthless (baring a couple of quests) you also cannot even trial crafting. while you can trial crafting and gathering to a small degree. you trial dofus and tou can at least, get a better feeling of whats available to subbers.

now i sugest doing like WoW does. they give free for life trial, provided you dont mid being gimped as a lvl 20 with only 100points in your two main skills (crafting)
if they allowed you to try crafting (and here i mean crafting junk stuff from the astrub items, not from the nations ecosystem side ) then you can say with more interest, 'i like making things, i fancy this game more' and then sub.

there is wood, metal fish and wheat available in the astrub areas. create some recipes that can be used by free players. hard bread from atrub wheat. wooden armour and wepons from astrub trees and armour and wepons from astrub iron. cook fish on the little BBQs around the asrub areas and the non nation maps so we can cook the astrub fish.
those will give more to do, give a sence of the crafting ability you could gain from being a sub.
make them connected to the crafting point, and not the account.
(example. i have gathered a stack of astrub iron and astrub wood. i go to a crafting station in cetra astrub and click it. it offers me choices such as 'training sword' which looks like a wooden sword like they use in Kendo. and 'rusty iron armour' which is a dustbin lid tied with bits of string at the front and another at the back... these items are makeable at the station, so are not considered true crafting items)

giving froobies something other than 'kill stuff in astrub' is a good idea, but you dont necisarily have to open the nations homeland areas up to them. it is true, if they could affect the ecosystem on their chosen nations, there would be mass destruction. i have seen such things happen in other styles of game, where the free players were accidentaly given more abilites and all frell broke loose. roll backs and resets were required to fix the mess.... but if you give them the use of stuff they allready have access to.... happier players at least a little.

oh, and add true trashcans. not ones that you store things in to swap. it destroys the items placed into it. not holds them. once its in there, its gone.


Short Strich * Member Since 2011-10-06
posté September 06, 2012, 20:28:21 | #12

Quote
giving froobies something other than 'kill stuff in astrub' is a good idea, but you dont necisarily have to open the nations homeland areas up to them. it is true, if they could affect the ecosystem on their chosen nations, there would be mass destruction. i have seen such things happen in other styles of game, where the free players were accidentaly given more abilites and all frell broke loose. roll backs and resets were required to fix the mess.... but if you give them the use of stuff they allready have access to.... happier players at least a little.

Again, I can't see why free players = eco terrorism. Someone please clarify this for me.
After all, the beta was free, and it was not very different from the current situation.


This post has been edited by Tolquius - September 07, 2012, 04:03:22.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-03-04
posté September 07, 2012, 15:08:46 | #13
its simple realy.

to cut down a resource that needs to be replanted or its gone for good, you need to be a subscriber.

people are worried that if free players could affect the ecosystem, they would simply take everything and never put anything back.

its the 'i dont give a monkeys red arse about if YOU want me to plant. talk to the finger casue the ears 'aint listening...*raises middle digit* ' feeling

it happens a LOT in some games. espcialy in games where there is resource gathering. and a lot of players assume that free players are in that mindset of 'me first, everyone else can go to hell'

and while i would dearly love to be able to spend my time (as a free player) replanting needed plants and trees and mobs, i am in a huge minority of players that actualy CARE about what their actions do to other players.

no one stops to think 'If i take this now, will there be none left for my fellows? will this green land be less green if i take all there is from here?' and when the answer is YES, they stop and leave something behind... (which was almost what the Reapers were going to do lol. but their motto was 'if i take everything now, how soon can the drone replant for me to take it all again?' XD )

this is what people worry about, should free players get access to the homeland ecosystems.
and this is why i sugested using the useless astrub resources and adding a crafting bench that lets you make things from them, without actualy giving you skills in weponsmithing or armoury and similar.

giving the froobies a taste of what a subber can have, without physicaly impacting on the subbers home nations ecosystems.

TL : DR
humans are greedy selfish pigs and ecpect free players to take everything and wreck their stuff if they had access to it.


This post has been edited by Silverbane7 - September 07, 2012, 15:10:18.
Short Strich * Member Since 2011-10-06
posté September 08, 2012, 04:54:30 | #14
Soooooooo.... Why was the beta not like this?

Better yet, why is the p2p exactly like that? 


This post has been edited by Tolquius - September 08, 2012, 04:58:38.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-03-04
posté September 13, 2012, 23:29:52 | #15
since you went to the time effort and anoyance of private messaging me (with the ankabox, which is more of a pain than anything else) i will tell you.

the answer is, it was BETA
most people in the beta were there to test the pvp style parts, i think.
and yes, the pay toplay part is like that.

why?

becasue of the TLDR i stated.
humans dont give a rats arse about anyone but themselves.
why should they care if they take stuff? its virtual. that means to them, its fair game . its a GAME, ergo, my fun is more important than anyone elses fun. ergo MY STUFFFS!!!!1 HANDS OFF!!!11 *insert random online gamer comment about get your hands off my things here*

this is the attitude thats causing all the problems. not just in games, but also in the real world (but not allways as noticeable)
the notion that becasue its a game, they can do anything they want, say anything they want and generaly spoil the enjoyment of the game for other players..becasue of the average humans feeling of entitalment. becasue of toxic dissasociation (see kids that scream down their 360 headsets at you becasue you beat them)
becasue they can..nuf said.

sorry, but thats the way it seems to be. ether way, its crap. but at least by doing the things i sugested, the free players get a little more and the pay players loose nothing


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2012-04-21
posté September 14, 2012, 20:12:00 | #16
Tolquius, it's not like you HAVE to pay this game for the rest of your life.
You pay to play for some time, once that time is up you can decide: if you enjoyed your time and want to continue, subs some more, if you got bored and want to take a brake, let your subs expire.
I, for one, will take a brake ... getting a bit bored and my subs is about to end, so I can come back later (in a few months) to check up on new stuff, no need to keep subbing if I'm not going to play.
But I agree with Zadist and Silverbane, some more limited F2P content would be welcome.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2006-12-13
posté September 23, 2012, 01:57:32 | #17
What the first post says is actually what i want to say. I am an old wakfu/dofus player and i want to play wakfu freely. Look guys as a university student neither i have the money to pay for subs nor i have time. I just want to play for couple of hours at night. But now that i am lvl 36 i can't do anything else other than random pvp. But crafting,trading,new dungeons would change a lot of things just saying ...


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2006-03-20
posté September 23, 2012, 04:29:53 | #18

Quote (SniperAtak @ 23 September 2012 01:57) *
What the first post says is actually what i want to say. I am an old wakfu/dofus player and i want to play wakfu freely. Look guys as a university student neither i have the money to pay for subs nor i have time. I just want to play for couple of hours at night. But now that i am lvl 36 i can't do anything else other than random pvp. But crafting,trading,new dungeons would change a lot of things just saying ...

I'm also a uni student and have little income.. and yet I manage to sub 3 accounts. Granted it was originally with ogrines. Subbing for a week isn't exactly expensive, instead of getting takeout one night buy some sub and eat some Mi Goreng .
But yes, new content for F2P players is a must really, I might throw some more suggestions up.. but honestly, I think what I wrote would suffice and make the game more enjoyable for F2P players.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-03-04
posté September 25, 2012, 17:03:08 | #19
exactly. a little more to do as a froobie, done carefully with brains, is all thats needed at the moment.
teaching them about crafting stuff with astrub based resources isnt going to impact on P2P players.
becasue astrub resources are useless. baring maybe one or two drops as quest items.

also, by using the system i sugested (for crafting) not only does it teach trial players the ropes as it were, it gives those who know they WILL sub something to do while they wait for the sub to go thru.
and gives players who are in the pending que (ie, i cant sub becasue of x problem with the payment system) something to do other than whinge on forums or just kill eachother all day.

after all, its not like adding some crafting stations in astrub, that use astrub resources, and require only materials and no crafting skill, shouldnt be too hard to make, right?
and thats all the crafting side that free to play needs for now. a way to show them *how* crafting works, while giving free players something to do other than fighting critters and dueling (is that possable as a free player? i never tried lol)