Back to forum.wakfu.com
Almanax 19 Septangel
Me Hearty Party
A whole day in honour of pirates: that's the dream that Seth Halitosis, modest corsair from the ...

No flash

pvp is useless
posté May 07, 2011, 21:47:12 | #1
pvp is useless Hi, i was a active player from dofus in heroic server. For those who doesnt know , heroic server is a server in which if you die you have to start over and the enemy who kills you get tons of xp and all itens you have on you. I found that server to be very fun, but its too extreme making people scared to play in it. For me its just awesome since the point in every game is risking things not a game where you dont have to be afraid of anything or anyone.

Anyway , the reason i quit heroic server is because wakfu really is a totally diferent game and its a much more complete game, i found it awesome the idea of players building the world , its policy , and everything about it. But please , please dont make the pvp a sad no-losing thing, you have to be prepared to lose stuffs, and fight to get them back.

Back in dofus when i play a normal server, all i used pvp for is wings, and no would care of losing a match, and there was no team play. My idea is simple, when you die you lose a x % of your xp, and that xp will go to the your enemy , and you have a x % of losing your itens your wearing, and you WILL LOSE all the itens you have on your pockets!

Here are the reasons i think this will be a good thing for the game:
1- Makes death MEANS somenthing ( right now you have to pay off some xp, but I havent seen any difference in it )
2- Makes the game a team player game based
3- Makes pk a way to profit
4- Makes the game more competitive
5- Makes players be more carefull in theyr actions and how they behave

Please take in mind im not asking the game to be extreme as heroic server, but i really dont want to see it to be as boring as it was in regular dofus...


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2007-03-08
posté May 07, 2011, 22:02:35 | #2
Your suggestion is still pretty extreme by most standards. Generally, losing items is a huge pain for most players because acquiring those items is equally difficult.

As for Wakfu being a PvP game in the first place... I just don't think it's really cut out for it on any real "competitive" level. After-all, being at a higher level, with better equipment means you're already on a better starting point than your opponent, but the game doesn't allow you to "competitively match-up" beforehand... so it constantly becomes this sort of "I'm better equipped/levelled, so I won. He was better equipped/levelled then I lost" predetermination.


This post has been edited by GoldfishGod - May 07, 2011, 22:04:55.
posté May 08, 2011, 00:18:28 | #3
That's still way too extreme, there is a reason Dofus's Heroic Server is called Heroic Server, it's for people with the kind of playing style like yours. One of the main reason there isn't more than 1 heroic server from a player perspective is because there are next to none heroic player types when you compare it to the "regular" player base. Try implementing even just a few of the heroic server features into normal servers and it's pretty much guaranteed that many current F2Ps and P2Ps will quit.


Quote
undefined (boccato @ 2011-05-07 21:47:12) too extreme making people scared to play in it.


People are not scared to play in it, it's just that a style like Heroic server is too easily abused, if I don't like you, I can just gather a gang of friends and agro the **** out of you. This happens quite often in international servers because of different communities co-existing together (Sometimes not so peacefully so). The fact that gears and levels are hard to obtain together and just dying once to a punk can make you lose everything you worked so hard for can really demotivate people, many players do have a life outside the game.


This post has been edited by Aie-for-Pie - May 08, 2011, 00:28:58.
Scary Polter * Member Since 2011-02-09
posté May 08, 2011, 04:19:02 | #4

Quote (boccato @ 07 May 2011 21:47) *

Here are the reasons i think this will be a good thing for the game:
1- Makes death MEANS somenthing ( right now you have to pay off some xp, but I havent seen any difference in it )
2- Makes the game a team player game based
3- Makes pk a way to profit
4- Makes the game more competitive
5- Makes players be more carefull in theyr actions and how they behave

1-Whats the point of losing exp? it just means you will have to grind 30 minutes again to get it back. And noone wants to start grinding all over again
2-It IS a team based game, its the player's fault if they decide not to join groups
3-HOW is that good? PK is supposed to be illegal, not rewarding.
4-I dont see why it needs to be competitive to being with, its a MMO.
5- They already are, all it will make is force player to watch their back afraid of someone 20 lvl higher aggroing them over and over again in the same area.


posté May 08, 2011, 04:33:15 | #5

Quote (GoldfishGod @ 07 May 2011 22:02) *
Your suggestion is still pretty extreme by most standards. Generally, losing items is a huge pain for most players because acquiring those items is equally difficult.

As for Wakfu being a PvP game in the first place... I just don't think it's really cut out for it on any real "competitive" level. After-all, being at a higher level, with better equipment means you're already on a better starting point than your opponent, but the game doesn't allow you to "competitively match-up" beforehand... so it constantly becomes this sort of "I'm better equipped/levelled, so I won. He was better equipped/levelled then I lost" predetermination.


Im sorry, i cant agree with that, lvl and gear does make a big diference, but the beauty of wakfu/dofus is that strategy can be deadly.


Quote (Aie-for-Pie @ 08 May 2011 00:18) *
That's still way too extreme, there is a reason Dofus's Heroic Server is called Heroic Server, it's for people with the kind of playing style like yours. One of the main reason there isn't more than 1 heroic server from a player perspective is because there are next to none heroic player types when you compare it to the "regular" player base. Try implementing even just a few of the heroic server features into normal servers and it's pretty much guaranteed that many current F2Ps and P2Ps will quit.


Quote
undefined (boccato @ 2011-05-07 21:47:12) too extreme making people scared to play in it.


People are not scared to play in it, it's just that a style like Heroic server is too easily abused, if I don't like you, I can just gather a gang of friends and agro the **** out of you. This happens quite often in international servers because of different communities co-existing together (Sometimes not so peacefully so). The fact that gears and levels are hard to obtain together and just dying once to a punk can make you lose everything you worked so hard for can really demotivate people, many players do have a life outside the game.

I do have a life outside of the game, im just saying that for me the big fun of this game is to beat real inteligence, by that i mean real players, AI can be a challenge but after a while, you get it and thats it , done.
as for real people, each one has a playing style, agressive, defensive, healing , tanking, whatever, its never the same, thats why i see pvp as a big deal
And btw i only had 4 friends at heroic, i used to be ganged all the time, by all the time i mean ALL the time, like my max lvl there was 80 in 4or 5 months, in the regular server i was 121 in 6 months.
but that didnt make me quit, sure somentimes you feel bad for wasting your time, but them you gang someone else , and your back in the game... its normal and its fun. All im saying is that i rather lose a pvp and lose all that precious pixels you guys are afraid to lose, then having the best equips, the best lvl , and fight a boss which no matter what, doesnt think like a human does.


Quote (DashxAngel @ 08 May 2011 04:19) *

Quote (boccato @ 07 May 2011 21:47) *

Here are the reasons i think this will be a good thing for the game:
1- Makes death MEANS somenthing ( right now you have to pay off some xp, but I havent seen any difference in it )
2- Makes the game a team player game based
3- Makes pk a way to profit
4- Makes the game more competitive
5- Makes players be more carefull in theyr actions and how they behave

1-Whats the point of losing exp? it just means you will have to grind 30 minutes again to get it back. And noone wants to start grinding all over again
2-It IS a team based game, its the player's fault if they decide not to join groups
3-HOW is that good? PK is supposed to be illegal, not rewarding.
4-I dont see why it needs to be competitive to being with, its a MMO.
5- They already are, all it will make is force player to watch their back afraid of someone 20 lvl higher aggroing them over and over again in the same area.

1- The point is to make sure that people wont just try everything and dont care about a single thing, lets just say there are a group of people destroying the ecosystem, and killing random people,what can they lose? nothing. what can you do? kill them and they will be back in 5 or maybe 10 minutes...
2- I know it is, but to have a chance to be pked almost anywhere will make people walk in groups 90% of the time.
3- Its not suppost to be illegal, if you kill someone from another nation thats ruining yours,i believe he should be rewarded , not just "yay i got 10 citzien points " .....
4- Well i play games for fun, not grinding or whatever, and everything that has a SPICE of competition leads to more fun, im not a nerd no lifer, trust me...
5- maybe can be a lvl gap or somenthing that will punish them for atacking for no reason. Back in heroic , if you were neutral and a bonta/brak attcked you, you would have guards backing you up, so maybe if your on your own territory and get agroed, guards would help you, but if your out there in no one's domain, you would have to be more carefull.



Im not sure you guys are following me here, im not saying you will lose all your equips everytime you die , and all your xp. Just make it like 5% xp per death , and a chance of 5% to drop somenthing your wearing, and each time you died, and do not lose, you would increase +5% , so if you died 4 time, and did not lose anything , but the fifth death , you would have a chance of 20% to drop somenthing.

I just dont get why people hate pvping, do you guys acctualy like to beat npc's over and over without big challanges?


ps. I didnt meant to call people scared in my post , but im not saying that wakfu must be as hard as heroic, cause as i said, heroic is EXTREME , im not asking for extreme, just for a little tiny bity hard.
lemme give you an example, today i died like 4 times, and guess what happened? nothing... oh yeah i better not ruin the ecosystem otherwise people will kill me and...... erm and nothing again


This post has been edited by boccato - May 08, 2011, 04:53:34.
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2011-02-20
posté May 08, 2011, 07:21:54 | #6

Quote
1- Makes death MEANS somenthing ( right now you have to pay off some xp, but I havent seen any difference in it )

Firstly I am fairly sure there is no exp penalty for dying in pvp or pve and there never will be.

Secondly there are penalties to dying from PvP as an outlaw or an invader. For outlaws the problem is not with pvp, but with the system that marks you as an outlaw, not outlawing you quick enough for repeated bad actions.
As an invader dying forces you back to your nation, which in-turn means you must spend more detonation powder to attack your enemy nation again.


Quote
2- Makes the game a team player game based.

Forcing people to party through fear does not make a good game.


Quote
3- Makes pk a way to profit

Translation "Make griefing profitable"


Quote
4- Makes the game more competitive

Um... no... This doesn't even make sense.


Quote
5- Makes players be more carefull in theyr actions and how they behave

Also no... This idea would encourage people to grief on mass, because now there is a chance they can steal your items. Or directly lower the players level forcing them to waste time leveling back up.
Say a group of high levels go around griefing 100 people... in order for you to get justice you would then have to grief them back 100 times... Essentially all your idea does is turns Wakfu into a game solely focused on griefing.

Your idea is terrible and poorly thought out.


This post has been edited by Aellia - May 08, 2011, 07:22:36.
Reason for edit : Added quote boxes
posté May 08, 2011, 09:02:30 | #7
I do not mind separate PvP-oriented server where rewards and penalties for PvP battles are increased. As long I have an option not to join it.

Sure I understand the idea - its always much more interesting to fight against human, specially in tactical game like this. AI, no matter how advanced, is predictable and becomes boring. Humans are full of surprises, battles are more interesting. However, it is only interesting as long there is chance for both sides to lose or win. Class, level and equipment have huge impact on the result, if you add rewards for killing other players and penalties for losing, the only outcome is griefing and lots of unhappy players.

Again, I do understand how it could be fun but I do not think it should be forced on every player. Options are good because they allow many types of players to choose whatever they like to do. Lets say I like to plant trees, something everyone can do but are not forced if they do not want to. Now lets change it so every char MUST plant trees for 3 hours every day or they will die and lose their items. Thats not really fun anymore and will make lots of players unhappy. PvP is exactly same, you should be able to take part if you want but if it does not interest you then you should also be able to do something else instead.


posté May 08, 2011, 13:50:13 | #8

Quote (boccato @ 07 May 2011 21:47) *
Hi, i was a active player from dofus in heroic server. For those who doesnt know , heroic server is a server in which if you die you have to start over and the enemy who kills you get tons of xp and all itens you have on you. I found that server to be very fun, but its too extreme making people scared to play in it. For me its just awesome since the point in every game is risking things not a game where you dont have to be afraid of anything or anyone.

Anyway , the reason i quit heroic server is because wakfu really is a totally diferent game and its a much more complete game, i found it awesome the idea of players building the world , its policy , and everything about it. But please , please dont make the pvp a sad no-losing thing, you have to be prepared to lose stuffs, and fight to get them back.

Back in dofus when i play a normal server, all i used pvp for is wings, and no would care of losing a match, and there was no team play. My idea is simple, when you die you lose a x % of your xp, and that xp will go to the your enemy , and you have a x % of losing your itens your wearing, and you WILL LOSE all the itens you have on your pockets!

Here are the reasons i think this will be a good thing for the game:
1- Makes death MEANS somenthing ( right now you have to pay off some xp, but I havent seen any difference in it )
2- Makes the game a team player game based
3- Makes pk a way to profit
4- Makes the game more competitive
5- Makes players be more carefull in theyr actions and how they behave

Please take in mind im not asking the game to be extreme as heroic server, but i really dont want to see it to be as boring as it was in regular dofus...

So as stated before, your idea of making PVP awesome and useful is "make PVP something only douchebaggy player stalkers and griefers enjoy, as means of not being able to do anything at all without losing hard-earned work"? I am afraid most people would agree it's a wee bit too silly.


posté May 08, 2011, 14:41:50 | #9
I was also a active Heroic Player but now I switched to Wakfu, because is is pretty relaxing. You know, if i want to lose five million Kamas in a few Minutes, I'll switch back to Heroic  


posté May 08, 2011, 17:51:11 | #10
Ok i give up, the guy who said players should have an option is correct, its just that right now players who WANT to pk dont have that option, i mean they do , but they are not getting anything from it. ill just hope they make a server where death and pk are diferente , not extreme as heroic , but harder then the one were in.

If they do that im satisfied already =)


This post has been edited by boccato - May 08, 2011, 17:53:54.
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2011-02-20
posté May 08, 2011, 18:29:58 | #11

Quote (boccato @ 08 May 2011 17:51) *
Ok i give up, the guy who said players should have an option is correct, its just that right now players who WANT to pk dont have that option, i mean they do , but they are not getting anything from it. ill just hope they make a server where death and pk are diferente , not extreme as heroic , but harder then the one were in.

If they do that im satisfied already =)

Your post pretty much reveals your personality... At first you speak of a reward for pvping but then say you just want a system that punishes the people you kill.

I imagine a heroic Wakfu server will turn up eventually.


posté May 08, 2011, 18:43:54 | #12

Quote (boccato @ 08 May 2011 17:51) *
Ok i give up, the guy who said players should have an option is correct, its just that right now players who WANT to pk dont have that option, i mean they do , but they are not getting anything from it. ill just hope they make a server where death and pk are diferente , not extreme as heroic , but harder then the one were in.

If they do that im satisfied already =)

As I am sure you understand, allowing people to not only be rewarded for bothering other players, but punishing the bothered ones for being bothered is like suing the family of a murdered person forcing them to pay the murderer because the murdered one was "silly enough to get killed".
For that kind of twisted, grief-inducing logics is what the Heroic servers are(rather, will be.) there for. In short, Player killers are already a pest without penalties involved, the last thing we need for an enjoyable-for-everyone playtime is to reward them for being one. 


posté May 08, 2011, 19:52:38 | #13
Look as I said, all I want is an option to battle other people for Itens or xp, maybe a duel arena where you can stake or a part of the map where you kill other people for itens, this way who doesnt feel like Pking or being Pked, just dont go there...

Right now the pvp means nothing, If you win, you get nothing , if you lose, you go back to your phoenix.
There are people who enjoy pk, and there are those who doesnt. Right now only those who doesnt are being satisfied =)


Scary Polter * Member Since 2011-02-09
posté May 08, 2011, 20:11:50 | #14

Quote (boccato @ 08 May 2011 19:52) *
Look as I said, all I want is an option to battle other people for Itens or xp, maybe a duel arena where you can stake or a part of the map where you kill other people for itens, this way who doesnt feel like Pking or being Pked, just dont go there...

Right now the pvp means nothing, If you win, you get nothing , if you lose, you go back to your phoenix.
There are people who enjoy pk, and there are those who doesnt. Right now only those who doesnt are being satisfied =)

I se your point but right now people just abuse pk for people who dont want to be part of it. Its already anoying for many people to go into the mines trying to collect iron or copper just to get aggroed by idiots who want to keep it all for themselves.

Maybe a good way to include pvp with a reward without punishing other players would be to add some kind of arena/colosseum, where you can join and do team fights and bet, say X a mount of kamas. The winner gets all the money and betting would be by itself the fee to join. That might be a solution i think, since both sides would have agreed to it already and all, it would work like a place for all the people wanting to pvp to gather and train.


posté May 08, 2011, 20:27:30 | #15

Quote
"I do have a life outside of the game, im just saying that for me the big fun of this game is to beat real inteligence, by that i mean real players, AI can be a challenge but after a while, you get it and thats it , done.
as for real people, each one has a playing style, agressive, defensive, healing , tanking, whatever, its never the same, thats why i see pvp as a big deal
And btw i only had 4 friends at heroic, i used to be ganged all the time, by all the time i mean ALL the time, like my max lvl there was 80 in 4or 5 months, in the regular server i was 121 in 6 months.
but that didnt make me quit, sure somentimes you feel bad for wasting your time, but them you gang someone else , and your back in the game... its normal and its fun. All im saying is that i rather lose a pvp and lose all that precious pixels you guys are afraid to lose, then having the best equips, the best lvl , and fight a boss which no matter what, doesnt think like a human does. "


I am not saying you don't have a life, but it looks at though you have too much free time compared to many others. Almost every single friend (both real life and in game) I know in Dofus and Wakfu play it because they can get some sense of progress and achievement from playing with their character, putting penalties into death is pretty much a slap in the face. If we were to go into a heroic server, none of us will go over level 60 because we can't grind our level and gear at the same time without getting killed by some griefers at some point in the game.


Many of us play for the PvE and the occational PvP as a guild/group, we don't go around actively finding people to kill. You are in the wrong game if you like this aspect that much. There are too many ways to grief people on a PvP/Heroic type server for games like Dofus and Wakfu.


Quote (boccato @ 08 May 2011 19:52) *
Look as I said, all I want is an option to battle other people for Itens or xp, maybe a duel arena where you can stake or a part of the map where you kill other people for itens, this way who doesnt feel like Pking or being Pked, just dont go there...

Right now the pvp means nothing, If you win, you get nothing , if you lose, you go back to your phoenix.
There are people who enjoy pk, and there are those who doesnt. Right now only those who doesnt are being satisfied =)
Being able to battle others for items and xp is easily exploited, it's just like wings farming in Dofus. It affects those of us who don't PvP because these people will eventually come out of PvP zone stronger and better geared than most of us.

Majority of the population don't actively go PvP, the "market" for a PvP server is small.


posté May 08, 2011, 21:18:46 | #16

Quote (boccato @ 08 May 2011 19:52) *
Look as I said, all I want is an option to battle other people for Itens or xp, maybe a duel arena where you can stake or a part of the map where you kill other people for itens, this way who doesnt feel like Pking or being Pked, just dont go there...

Right now the pvp means nothing, If you win, you get nothing , if you lose, you go back to your phoenix.
There are people who enjoy pk, and there are those who doesnt. Right now only those who doesnt are being satisfied =)

I see your point as well, but as stated before, unless it were some kind of low-profit, only-one-per-X-amount-of-time, or extremely strict tournaments it would be unfair for the majority (aka those that don't like fighting other players when PVP is mostly heavily unbalanced towards blunt melee classes.)
PVP is best left soley for fun. If you like PVP all you should need as a reward is the enjoyment of winning over someone else (provided you are in even situations, and not going lolIop/cra vs eniripsa healer), hence why in turn Heroic servers spawn.

(Although you didn't say you wanted a way of fighting people for rewards; you said you wanted PK-ing changed to be profitable for the PK's/PVPers.)


posté May 08, 2011, 21:33:36 | #17

Quote (Aellia @ 08 May 2011 18:29) *
Your post pretty much reveals your personality...
*Nods*


This post has been edited by Aie-for-Pie - May 08, 2011, 21:36:09.
posté May 09, 2011, 09:08:19 | #18
If I understood correctly some messages from developers there should be eventually lots of PvP between nations, so if PvP is what you want, you may want to wait a bit for conquest of territories and such to be added. Then again, I do not think killing anyone anywhere just for fun will be included, you still need to be careful who you attack, where and when.

Since much of content is still unreleased or is getting changed, its too early to say what the game will play at the end. I believe there will be some sort of PvP but its all about little details. If penalties for killing others are too strong, nobody bothers with it. If rewards are too good, everyone starts to attack weaker players. Getting the balance right is very complicated, yet it can be much fun when done correctly.


posté July 08, 2011, 09:57:25 | #19
Having a Heroic Wakfu server would be a good idea, but implementing heroic rules on a normal server isn't. You and other people may like it, but most don't.

I used to play on Oto Mustan too, yet I don't think this should ever be implemented. All they can do is make another heroic server for people who want to play in it.


posté July 08, 2011, 16:35:59 | #20
I think that this speech is to do in the full game, we do not have access to all contents of Wakfu and is not yet know what devs will add new.

as an ultima online old player i've not problems with pk and full-loot but actually wakfu isn't a game in which every class can do the same thing so it's not fair and people take advantage from that.


This post has been edited by prespicboy - July 08, 2011, 16:36:53.