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Almanax 27 Novamaire
Skank Hivin
The Skank Hivin festival owes its name to a Dragoturkey breeder. He was so jealous of his cousin, ...

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AI bugs with the Sadida Dolls
Game Designer * Member Since 2012-05-03
posté April 30, 2013, 10:35:45 | #1
AI bugs with the Sadida Dolls Hi there,

I’d like to get your feedback on the bugs you have experienced with the Sadida Dolls. If you experienced one, please post it here.

Please include:
  • The Doll it concerns
  • What did it do wrong
  • What should it do instead
  • Reproducibility process

Please understand that this thread is not meant for debate, but only bug reporting.

Thank you for your help!



Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté April 30, 2013, 10:41:50 | #2
In pvp ive seen inflatable try to heal an opponents microbot over and over again instead of healing the Saddia.

You should be able to reproduce it in a one on one pvp between a saddida and a foggernaught


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - April 30, 2013, 10:47:54.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté April 30, 2013, 12:41:50 | #3
In larva dungeon Inflatable healed Shin Larva Boss instead of players.
It should heal only allies.

During PvP Inflatable is not healing the "pvp bonus HP" that Sadida have.
It should heal PvP HP too.

If Sadida have enemies in contact , Inflatable is not coming to heal Sadida, but moving away. It happends when there is no access to Sadida in straight line, however the Inflatable spell is able to heal in any direction, diagonally too.
Inflatable should heal even if it means that it need to come closer to enemies, it should never run away if Sadida need heal.

Greedy doll is not moving at all if the only access to enemy is by walking on Mud cells. I tried giving Nettle state to Greedy to make it have enough MP even after loosing 1 from Mud cell. The doll won't move at all even though it would be able to move to enemy, just because of the Mud Cell. It also makes Dolls run around the whole map if the there are 2 ways to enemy: 1 through mud cell and 1 longer, around the whole map - doll always choose to not step on the cells with effects and they prefer to run around and not attack at all during that turn.
Dolls should walk on the cells such as -1WP, -1MP, -1AP, if it means it will reach the enemy. However dolls should not walk on the cells that help enemies (example: Lunar dungeon cells, Whisperer island cells, Vampyro dungeon). In other words Dolls should choose the shortest way to reach enemy but they should avoid stepping on special cells that give bonus/heal or protection to enemies. They should also avoid stepping on cells with Freeze state in frigost areas. Basically anything that a player should not walk on, dolls should also not walk on, but cells that player might choose to walk on (such as Mud cell with -1MP) should also make doll able to walk on it if it's needed to attack enemy instead of running around the whole map or not moving at all.

The Blocker is not using it's spell from distance. It seems blocker use pulling spell from range 1 only, when it doesn't do anything. If Blocker move, it won't use the spell.
Blocker should use the spell every time it have enemy in range of the spell. If 1 enemy is in contact with Blocker and other enemy is within range of blocker spell, then blocker should pull the other enemy.

If Ultrapowerful doll have remembered spell Woodland Stench, K'mir or Poisoned Wind it won't attack Boss that have size of 9 cells. It seems that the Doll want to attack the middle cell of Boss, but since it's covered by 8 other cells of Boss body, then it doesn't attack at all. There is no problem if Ultrapowerful remember Sudden Chill or Gust spell, because these spells attack with no LoS.
Ultrapowerful should attack any cell of Boss with size of 9 cells.

Greedy Dolls are not always attacking the Boss with 9 cells size if they are in close combat with it. It seems they don't attack the "corners" of the Boss and want to be in line with the middle cel of Boss before they attack it. It leads to Dolls being locked, even though they could simply attack the boss from the position they are standing at. Also Dolls that are near Boss are sometimes choosing to run away to different enemy without attacking the Boss. In Shin Larva dungeon it happens with the 4 Larvas that are set by default - dolls want to kill these 4 larvas before attacking the Shin Larva Boss.
Dolls should attack the enemy in contact and should not move to different one as long as there is 1 enemy in contact already.

Dolls are ignoring summons. It is problematic because dolls are not attacking them even though they would not reach the summoner. It often makes dolls being locked without attacking the summon. Happends in PvP with Osamodas and in any fight with monster that have summons.
Dolls should attack closest enemy and should not move from it even if it's just summon that they attack. If Sadida want to move the doll from the summon, then it will control it or push it. If doll can choose attack summoner or summons, then Dolls should attack summoner. However if Dolls can attack summon only - they should attack that summon.

Dolls are not attacking Cocoons in Shin Larva dungeon. We need to control them to make Dolls attack these. This is not good. Dolls should attack anything that they can if the target is enemy, including mechanical stuff like Cocoons or Beacons. However they should not attack them if they can attack something else. They should attack these tools only if there is nothing else to attack within their range.

Dolls are not moving if they have 1MP left or if they cannot use spell. IT seems that if doll cannot cast the spell, it pass turn and not even move. Happends when Doll loose AP (Greedy doll) or when Doll cast spell that include using MP (Ultrapowerful with Woodland Stench remembered).
If Doll cannot attack and no enemy is in contact with doll, then it should at least use the remaining MP to move closer to enemy.

Dolls are switching targets in close combat. If there are more then 1 enemy within Doll range, the Doll is often changing target of attack. It means that dolls don't want to kill 1 enemy and leaving other enemies unharmed. This way all enemies can attack untill they are all at low health and this is not good.
If more then 1 enemy is within range of Doll, then it should attack the one with less HP.

Sometimes dolls are running from 1 side of enemy to the other side of the same enemy... Or they are runing around before moving to enemy, instead of moving to the enemy in straight line. Dolls are also trying to use all MP before attacking, even though they reached the enemy before last MP was used by them. This happends when doll move near enemy side and want to move to enemy back.
Dolls should not change the position around enemy on purpose to attack it from behind or side. Dolls should attack from the position they are in. We are placing Dolls on certain cells to make them move to the closest enemy with as few MP used as possible. If we would want doll to move to enemy back, then we would control it. Dolls should not do that by themself because it makes them locked and it makes them not attack.

When K'mir spell is remembered on Ultrapowerfull and that Ultrapowerful will be under Nettle state, then effect of K'mir won't apply. This is not bug related to AI, but to the bugged spell of doll...still i think it's worth mentioning as i want to use the doll to move enemy or ally with k'mir spell and MP boosted from Nettle and i can't. AI itself won't make doll move enemy with K'mir spell, but maybe if Ultrapowerful doll remember the K'mir spell it should use remaining MP to try to "run away" with enemy linked, to make enemy hurt by poison.

If Madoll or Lethargic have K'mir spell on it, it will run around in circle with enemy linked, instead of running away in straight line.
Appearently same bug happends with Striches linked to K'mir. Basically anything with Run AWAY AI seems to run in circle when you use k'mir on it wich is stupid.
Make them run in straight line if possible.


Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-10-15
posté April 30, 2013, 13:31:18 | #4
  • Inflatable
  • Refuse to heal a target with low hp, even though it was the only target that could be healed. It does not attempt to go towards the target, but instead run away from the target. Other dolls experience the same thing, leaving the target unhealed.
  • Inflatables should try to heal the lowest hp target that they can reach, without being potentially locked.
  • Reproducibility is unknown, rarely happens, but is detrimental when it does.
_____________________________________________________________________________

  • Inflatable
  • Most fights, dolls avoid stepping on tiles with negative effects, like the Whisper (Shhhudoku) Island or the new chillberg area. This is excellent. Some fights, however, the dolls do not avoid stepping on tiles with negative effects, even though they do in most fights.
  • Dolls should always avoid stepping negative tiles, with the exception of Mud Tiles and Sacred Tiles.
  • Reproducibility is unknown, occasionally happens, and is detrimental when it does. An example is the first room of the Crackapult Range (Level 100) dungeon. The first time doing this fight, dolls avoided walking on the negative tiles. The second time doing this fight, dolls did walk on the negative tiles. The third time doing this fight, dolls avoided walking on the negative tiles. It appears to be random.
_____________________________________________________________________________

  • Inflatable
  • Inflatables sometimes try to either consume all MP, or move directly beside the target to heal, instead of healing from a diagonal or from a distance. This causes them to try and move past monsters, and experience a lock, when they could have reached with a heal.
  • Inflatables should heal as soon as the target is within range and line of sight. They should not continue moving until after they healed the target.
  • There are a number of ways to reproduce this, one example is to place a healing target, then a monster, then an empty space, and then the doll in a line. With level 10 nettled, the doll will have 5 MP. The doll will use 3 MP and move beside the enemy. Instead of healing on a diagonal, the doll will try to move beside the healing target. This forces it to try and dodge the enemy before healing the healing target.
_____________________________________________________________________________

  • Inflatable
  • When multiple targets need healing, and are within range of a single Inflatable, they seem to use a Random Number Generator when choosing which target to heal. For example, lets say there is an ally at 90% HP and an ally at 50% HP within range of the Inflatable. The Inflatable will sometimes choose to heal the 90% HP ally instead of the 50% HP ally.
  • Inflatables should always focus heals on the lowest HP ally within their range.
  • This can be reproduced by placing a 90% HP ally and a 50% HP ally beside an Inflatable. The Inflatable will chose to heal the 90% HP ally.
______________________________________________________________________________

  • Inflatable
  • When fighting Chafers, the Inflatable will sometimes attack the Chafer with their healing spell, instead of healing an ally within range.
  • Inflatables should always try and heal an ally, unless they can not reach an ally, before trying to attack a Chafer.
  • This can be reproduced by fighting a Chafer and having an ally at less then max HP. The Inflatable will sometimes attack the Chafer instead of healing the ally.
______________________________________________________________________________

  • Greedy
  • When fighting a single target, like in PvP, the Greedy will move beside the target. Instead of attacking, the Greedy will sometimes try to move to another side of the target before attacking, causing the Greedy to be locked without attacking at all.
  • Greedys should always attack the target when they are in melee range. They should not try to move away from the target, forcing a potential lock, unless they have already attacked.
  • This can be reproduced by placing the Greedy near a target, and give the Greedy a sufficient amount of MP, such as 7 MP with nettled level 10. The greedy will sometimes move within melee range, and then try to move to another side of the target, causing the Greedy to be locked.



This post has been edited by Moongrove89 - April 30, 2013, 14:10:50.
Reason for edit : Additions
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2011-10-05
posté April 30, 2013, 14:15:32 | #5

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 30 April 2013 12:41) *
Dolls are switching targets in close combat. If there are more then 1 enemy within Doll range, the Doll is often changing target of attack. It means that dolls don't want to kill 1 enemy and leaving other enemies unharmed. This way all enemies can attack untill they are all at low health and this is not good.
If more then 1 enemy is within range of Doll, then it should attack the one with less HP.

There is an actual reason behind this or it can be rationalized at least. A doll that casts 1+ spells during its turn is usually (without some AP buff) an UP with WS, Gust or PW set. In these cases the dolls try to maintain the poison on as many enemies as possible (WS, Gust) or increase thier overall damage output (PW - maximum dmg/ap of 1 cast is 2, of n cast is n+1 until 5, meaning that on 3 enemies it can reach 3*2=6 on 1 enemy just 3).
Which way you prefer them to act is a personal preference and those that get the short end of the stick will have to pay 1ap for control if they want to change it. I would be fine with either option, but like they way they are now a bit better (controlling to finish off an enemy vs. to maintain poison).


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2005-07-29
posté April 30, 2013, 15:28:56 | #6
Dolls do not benefit from +Summon Damage (SD) equipment. Proof included in image below!

When wearing equipment that gives +SD, this is not applied to Sadida's Dolls. Strangely enough, the +SD from Time Bonus and Nettled are applied correctly.

Both Greedy and Ultra-Powerfull Dolls suffer from this. Have not tested with Inflatable Doll.



Click here for full size 


Lazy Bow Meow * Member Since 2011-02-17
posté April 30, 2013, 15:37:21 | #7
Madoll
Reducing MP of the totem when it's out instead of the target itself, -MP doesn't transfer from the totem to the target


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-18
posté April 30, 2013, 15:44:39 | #8
1. Summon damage is the biggest problem, it's not working

2. At sadida kingdom when you summon 2 greedys at the same time with rust sometimes one of them or both come out with 1hp and without the sadida's water mastery.

3. In black crow UB fight dolls pass their turn even when they can hit something or heal someone. I'm thinking the tornadoes confuse them in some way.

4. Dolls walk on penalty border tiles at sadida kingdom and at shhhdoku kingdom (whisper island).

5. The dolls that run away like madoll, lethargic, and sometimes inflatables just run too far when nettled..all the way to the farthest place on the map..this hurts a lot.

6. I've also noticed maddolls and lethargic dolls not taking away MP or AP even when there's no hyperaction or hypermovement. I know some monsters have some resist to it naturally but I've seen it happen too often.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté April 30, 2013, 17:49:39 | #9

Quote (Szega @ 30 April 2013 14:15) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 30 April 2013 12:41) *
Dolls are switching targets in close combat. If there are more then 1 enemy within Doll range, the Doll is often changing target of attack. It means that dolls don't want to kill 1 enemy and leaving other enemies unharmed. This way all enemies can attack untill they are all at low health and this is not good.
If more then 1 enemy is within range of Doll, then it should attack the one with less HP.

There is an actual reason behind this or it can be rationalized at least. A doll that casts 1+ spells during its turn is usually (without some AP buff) an UP with WS, Gust or PW set. In these cases the dolls try to maintain the poison on as many enemies as possible (WS, Gust) or increase thier overall damage output (PW - maximum dmg/ap of 1 cast is 2, of n cast is n+1 until 5, meaning that on 3 enemies it can reach 3*2=6 on 1 enemy just 3).
Which way you prefer them to act is a personal preference and those that get the short end of the stick will have to pay 1ap for control if they want to change it. I would be fine with either option, but like they way they are now a bit better (controlling to finish off an enemy vs. to maintain poison).
Thing is that Ultrapowerful doll is changing target wich makes the previous one loose the stacked poison. You hope your doll will continue stacking poison on 1 target but it switches target and uses all of attacks on different one, making all levels of poison that were stacked - lost from the target that it was attacking before. So no they don't maintain poison and they don't want to finish off enemy. If i would want doll to change target of attack i would control it - that's obvious. This should be changed.


posté April 30, 2013, 21:08:23 | #10
Is it normal that it wants to use up all their mp just to step on tiles which gives hp or bonuses to the enemy? ~ ~ And why do they freeze so often? Especially at Lunar dungeon.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté May 01, 2013, 18:31:05 | #11
My dolls skip turns all the time.

Mainly the air dolls.

The Madoll
Does this really annoying thing which might be because of it's coney ai (maybe)

It kind of just keeps running around the map instead of stealing ap. However, it doesn't happen all the time, only happens at the worst time possible but thats predictable. Some people might call it selective memory, but, I'm pretty sure its at the worst times since its always in the dungeons.

In general, dolls don't seem to work well in high lvl dungeons. They are a pain at vamp, never allowed to play there again as a sadi Q____Q


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté May 01, 2013, 21:15:53 | #12
If there is someone with low health (enemy), Dolls are moving away from other enemies that they have in close combat to run to the other enemy with less HP. Doesn't matter if doll won't reach it, doesn't matter if that low-on-health enemy is in the other part of the map - dolls are trying to run to it.

This is bad because it results in dolls not attacking anything. Happends with Greedy doll.

How they should work? They should ignore other enemies if they have 1 enemy in contact already. Greedy doll should never risk being locked. It should always attack as soon as it move to the lock zone of enemy. Greedy doll should not change target of attack unless there are more then 1 enemy in contact with Greedy - then it should choose to attack one of the enemies in contact, preferably the one with less HP.

Oh and i did Trouble Dungeon today (in Asturb sewers) and in last room my Ultrapowerful Doll was trying to walk on "Push" cells, wich made it waste all MP doing nothing in that turn but repeatadly trying to walk on that cell....

SO in short dolls should walk on cells:
with -MP to doll; with -WP to doll, with -AP to doll (yes they should walk on -AP cell too, because it's better for doll to move through it to enemy and eventually gain Hyperaction, instead of making it run away or not move at all).

All other cells should be avoided by dolls:
Pushback cell and all "special cells" (such as the ones in Cracklerer dungeon, Vampyro dungeon, Lunar dungeon...)

In other words if the cell make enemies benefit from it's effect when we step on it, then dolls should not walk on it. Also if the cell will make doll unable to attack (Freeze state in Frigost), then dolls should also not attack enemy.

It seems that dolls have AI of enemies, and act as little traitors by walking on the cells with effects that give profit to our enemies...


EDIT: Just wanted to add that Inflatable doll is running away after healing. This is especially annoying with Green Guard triggered, wich makes Inflatable doll run far away from Sadida. The best solution would be to change Inflatable AI to stop moving after heal is done - this way inflatable will use MP only to reach ally to heal, and it will never run away after healing. That would help.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - May 01, 2013, 22:34:14.
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté May 01, 2013, 22:44:58 | #13
Rarely, ultra powerful will attack one enemy without using all of its attacks then move away. This is easiest to reproduce using the 2 ap spell.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté May 02, 2013, 00:22:20 | #14

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 01 May 2013 22:44) *
Rarely, ultra powerful will attack one enemy without using all of its attacks then move away. This is easiest to reproduce using the 2 ap spell.
It might be because they change target of attack, even if they can;t reach other enemy...


Also today i did Zinit 2 Stalagmonarch boss. My Greedy dolls were not attacking boss at all, even when it was the only thing to attack, they were just ending turns. It made my team fail to kill him and we all blame the doll's AI. It also happends with Ultrapowerful dolls - they are not attacking boss! fix it please.

Also inflatable doll does not heal allies, just sadida, and if it cant heal sadida, it doesn't heal anyone even though it could reach them - happened in zinit, at Stalagmonarch boss.

Inflatable doll seems to not realise that it can heal diagonally from cell 2 - it always move to try to heal from 3 cell range - fix it please.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - May 02, 2013, 00:23:27.
Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-10-15
posté May 02, 2013, 00:57:54 | #15
  • Inflatable
  • After healing a target, if an inflatable has a high amount of MP left, like 5 MP for example, it can run far away from potential healing targets, causing it to be too far out of range on the next turn.
  • Inflatables should not run too far away from potential healing targets. They should stay in a range, like 3 cells for example, so they are close to heal the next turn. Inflatables should not stop moving after they heal. They should attempt to move behind allies, away from enemies, but still stay in range so they can heal on the next turn with ease. In an ideal scenario the Inflatable will be on the outside of combat, move a bit in to heal, then move a bit out of combat but still stay near allies.
  • This can be reproduced by placing an enemy and an ally beside each other, and then placing an Inflatable 3 squares behind the ally. The Inflatable will heal the ally, then run 5 squares away from the ally.
 


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2012-01-19
posté May 02, 2013, 00:59:20 | #16
Ultra powerful wont attack diagonally. They will circle around a target if there are 2 melee nearby, even when you summon it so it can attack diagonally.

Blockers pull targets out of other blockers lock-zone, and never move closer. This makes it hard to surround a target with blockers unless we manage to summon every doll near it.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté May 02, 2013, 02:15:45 | #17
This isn't ai but dolls don't benefit from the Saddidas crit% Infact i dont think they crit at all.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté May 02, 2013, 02:28:36 | #18

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 02 May 2013 02:15) *
This isn't ai but dolls don't benefit from the Saddidas crit% Infact i dont think they crit at all.
I have never seen doll crit. All monster crit and so all osamodas summons crit, but dolls don't crit at all. It seems dolls have 0% crit rate - i find it unfair.

It seems Madolls and lethargic dolls are not removing AP/MP diagonally, even though they can - they always try to be in line with enemy... If the only way to remove AP/MP is diagonally (because enemy is surrounded), then dolls will run away instead of coming closer to remove AP/MP.

These Dolls should use their spells properly, from any direction.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - May 02, 2013, 02:32:08.
Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-10-15
posté May 02, 2013, 04:49:44 | #19
  • Inflatable
  • After receiving a 3 AP bonus from a Feca's earth glyph Inflatables seem to not heal the same target twice. They do heal twice though, but it seems to always heal two different targets.
  • Inflatables should heal a target with low HP twice, instead of healing one target with low HP and one target who is at almost full HP and does not need to be healed.
  • This can be reproduced by summoning a doll on the Feca's AP bonus earth glyph, and having two targets that need to be healed in range of the Inflatable. The Inflatable will heal two different targets, instead of healing one target twice.
 


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté May 02, 2013, 13:49:02 | #20
Sacrificial doll

When doll can choose: aoe enemy and ally or aoe only enemy, the doll is choosing to aoe enemy and ally. It might happen because dolls are choosing to attack from side or back.

Sacrificial doll should try to not hurt allies if it have choice. However if its already in contact with enemy then obviously it shoudl explode without moving.

Also sacrificial doll should walk to hit as many enemies as possible but it seems it walk to hit only 1 target, with less resist and thats a waste of aoe it deal.

Blocker

In Schneck Prison, Blocker is moving away from the enemy trying to walk to enemy with less HP... This makes Blocker not play the main role - tanking and locking the enemies in close combat.

Blocker should not move if it have enemy in contact.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - May 02, 2013, 13:59:59.