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AI bugs with the Sadida Dolls
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-03-15
posté May 19, 2013, 16:50:05 | #41
You take enis to all UBs and island dungeons, not sadidas.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2011-08-07
posté May 19, 2013, 17:12:19 | #42

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 11 May 2013 21:45) *
I have best solution for all the issues with dolls AI:

Make Sadida control dolls by default, just like Enutrof control Drheller or Osamodas control Gobgob.

Another suggestion is to make Sadida permanently control doll once it use Controled state on it (cast it once and control the doll till it dies). That won't solve the AI issues but at least will give Sadida some hope that it can rely on dolls.
I'm not ready to see a 6 doll sadida get 3.5 minutes of every round to move dolls around and control them.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté May 19, 2013, 22:05:38 | #43

Quote (cyndiloo @ 19 May 2013 17:12) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 11 May 2013 21:45) *
I have best solution for all the issues with dolls AI:

Make Sadida control dolls by default, just like Enutrof control Drheller or Osamodas control Gobgob.

Another suggestion is to make Sadida permanently control doll once it use Controled state on it (cast it once and control the doll till it dies). That won't solve the AI issues but at least will give Sadida some hope that it can rely on dolls.
I'm not ready to see a 6 doll sadida get 3.5 minutes of every round to move dolls around and control them.
Better that then making Sadida use vaporize on every single doll it have in range and waste own timer turn to just control dolls (and waste AP). If Sadida know what to do then it would control dolls with no delay comparing to AI (or slightly delay of 1~4 seconds maybe).

I am just sick of how stupid dolls are.

Greedy dolls sometimes run to someone with "zig zag" - they run around even when there is no obstacle near wich makes them use 4 MP to move 2 cells in line. It seems dolls just prefer to use all MP before attacking.

And what they should do? They should move with as few MP as possible to the nearest target available.

I think that even if they make Vaporize with 1~7 cell range and no LoS with 2AP returned when cast on doll, it will be still problematic to control all dolls. It's also problematic to sacrifice all 6 dolls (remove them from cells) in order to start gathering Lone Sadida. You have to cast Dolly Sacrififce twice for each doll. Even if its cheap in AP - you simply will have no time to attack and you will have un-used AP when timer reach 0.

This is why i think they should make Doll (active spell) turn dolls to seeds (when cast on doll) and Dolly Sacrifice should remove doll from cell (without leaving seed) and dolls should be controlable by default. Or maybe there should be a spell that cast on self will make Sadida control all dolls (when normally they have AI) - that would satisfy everybody, those who want to control dolls and those who want to make AI do the job.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-03
posté May 19, 2013, 22:15:03 | #44

Quote (kkakaieie @ 19 May 2013 13:34) *

Quote (aquabeauty @ 17 May 2013 20:28) *
Grou.

Replies to the EniRIPsa thread

and

Ignores the thread he made for saDIEdas.
Its because Eniripsa are underpowered and Sadidas are Great!
i SENSE sarcasm.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-03-15
posté May 19, 2013, 22:18:03 | #45

Quote (aquabeauty @ 19 May 2013 22:15) *

Quote (kkakaieie @ 19 May 2013 13:34) *

Quote (aquabeauty @ 17 May 2013 20:28) *
Grou.

Replies to the EniRIPsa thread

and

Ignores the thread he made for saDIEdas.
Its because Eniripsa are underpowered and Sadidas are Great!
i SENSE sarcasm.
It has to be sarcasm XD. Who goes into UBs and high level dungeons without an eni? you can go to any without a sadida.

And about giving sadidas control of doll, they can make it 10 seconds instead of the 30


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-03
posté May 19, 2013, 22:19:45 | #46

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 19 May 2013 22:05) *

Quote (cyndiloo @ 19 May 2013 17:12) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 11 May 2013 21:45) *
I have best solution for all the issues with dolls AI:

Make Sadida control dolls by default, just like Enutrof control Drheller or Osamodas control Gobgob.

Another suggestion is to make Sadida permanently control doll once it use Controled state on it (cast it once and control the doll till it dies). That won't solve the AI issues but at least will give Sadida some hope that it can rely on dolls.
I'm not ready to see a 6 doll sadida get 3.5 minutes of every round to move dolls around and control them.
Better that then making Sadida use vaporize on every single doll it have in range and waste own timer turn to just control dolls (and waste AP). If Sadida know what to do then it would control dolls with no delay comparing to AI (or slightly delay of 1~4 seconds maybe).

I am just sick of how stupid dolls are.

Greedy dolls sometimes run to someone with "zig zag" - they run around even when there is no obstacle near wich makes them use 4 MP to move 2 cells in line. It seems dolls just prefer to use all MP before attacking.

And what they should do? They should move with as few MP as possible to the nearest target available.

I think that even if they make Vaporize with 1~7 cell range and no LoS with 2AP returned when cast on doll, it will be still problematic to control all dolls. It's also problematic to sacrifice all 6 dolls (remove them from cells) in order to start gathering Lone Sadida. You have to cast Dolly Sacrififce twice for each doll. Even if its cheap in AP - you simply will have no time to attack and you will have un-used AP when timer reach 0.

This is why i think they should make Doll (active spell) turn dolls to seeds (when cast on doll) and Dolly Sacrifice should remove doll from cell (without leaving seed) and dolls should be controlable by default. Or maybe there should be a spell that cast on self will make Sadida control all dolls (when normally they have AI) - that would satisfy everybody, those who want to control dolls and those who want to make AI do the job.

Personally, I think Vaporize costing 1ap is great and it is working. I would shoot myself if i had to control 2+ dolls every turn.

Also in regard to the dolls talking 3 minutes. =/ They already get a 30 second turn laspe and when they derp (which is most of the time) they usually don't end turn anyway. So your theory is flawed.

It is annoying when they derp, but the solution is to -fix the ai- Which I am not saying is easy (See grou and devs, I do understand to an extent)

I think what needs to be done is that support dolls should naturally have more mp. Dmg dolls should have less.

The hyper movement/action on the current support/tactical dolls right now is ridiculous and the removal of it costs too much, ap wise.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté May 19, 2013, 23:11:46 | #47

Quote (aquabeauty @ 19 May 2013 22:19) *
Personally, I think Vaporize costing 1ap is great and it is working. I would shoot myself if i had to control 2+ dolls every turn.

Also in regard to the dolls talking 3 minutes. =/ They already get a 30 second turn laspe and when they derp (which is most of the time) they usually don't end turn anyway. So your theory is flawed.

It is annoying when they derp, but the solution is to -fix the ai- Which I am not saying is easy (See grou and devs, I do understand to an extent)

I think what needs to be done is that support dolls should naturally have more mp. Dmg dolls should have less.

The hyper movement/action on the current support/tactical dolls right now is ridiculous and the removal of it costs too much, ap wise.
Would be nice if Vaporize, when cast on self, would apply Controled to all dolls on the field - that will save time and AP when you want to control more dolls.

And yeah when dolls are starting to "think" for 30 seconds to eventually end turn doing nothing, it's extremly annoying. I heard it happends when server lag. This issue would not exist if dolls were controlable by default. You would then make doll move within 5 seconds and end turn.

Or maybe if we decide to control one doll, maybe the Controled state should not dissapear? If we will cast vaporize again on the controled doll, the controled state would dissapear. How about that?

I am tired of using Vaporize every turn (on 1~2 dolls even). And usually i have to. Especially with the Ultrapowerful dolls that has Gust remembered - they always cast Gust by targeting enemy with middle cell, wich means no Push on enemy, but instead they push other dolls from target (including blockers), wich is actually a drawback.

As for the MP - dolls are fine with their MP as they are now (as long as we can increase it with Nettle). I noticed that the more MP, the more awkward doll behave (sometimes they act as if they want to use all MP before attacking (greedy, inflatable), and other time they use all MP and not attack at all (Blocker doll)).

As for hypermovement and hyperaction i agree. Before these states were implemented, Madoll was fun to use, but it not always could remove MP due to "run away AI". But since they added Hypermovement the Madoll became a "never-to-be-used" doll. Lethargic is the same - not worth summoning.

Maybe if they had 100% (+0.5* Sadida level) chance to remove AP/MP, then they will be useful.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - May 19, 2013, 23:14:00.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-03-15
posté May 20, 2013, 17:59:46 | #48
Is summon damage even working?...


Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-10-22
posté May 21, 2013, 05:30:57 | #49
  • Inflatable
  • If a Sram is low on HP, goes Invisible, and then moves from its spot, the Inflatable will attempt to heal the Sram. However, the Inflatable casts its healing spell on the spot where the Sram went invisible, and ends up casting the spell on an empty square, wasting its turn. This is similar to how monsters will attack an empty square after the Sram moves away while invisible.
  • I assume since healing makes the Sram lose invisibility, Inflatables should not attempt to heal a Sram that is invisible. They should not heal an empty square.
  • To reproduce this, have a Sram ally with low hp. Make the Sram go invisible, and then move at least one square. The Inflatable will attempt to heal the square that the Sram went invisible on, and will heal an empty square.
 


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-03-15
posté May 21, 2013, 17:35:19 | #50

Quote (Neneko88 @ 16 May 2013 14:32) *
The bug patch on tuesday didn't fix the doll (greedy) bug at sadida kingdom where they come out without sadida's water mastery. Try again please, it's insulting to have this bug at sadida kingdom
This still happens and it's even worse than before, now greedys don't get your water % at all at sadida kingdom. It's the most ironic bug I've ever seen 


Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-10-22
posté May 21, 2013, 18:42:05 | #51

Quote (Neneko88 @ 21 May 2013 17:35) *

Quote (Neneko88 @ 16 May 2013 14:32) *
The bug patch on tuesday didn't fix the doll (greedy) bug at sadida kingdom where they come out without sadida's water mastery. Try again please, it's insulting to have this bug at sadida kingdom
This still happens and it's even worse than before, now greedys don't get your water % at all at sadida kingdom. It's the most ironic bug I've ever seen

I assume this must be a hard, or nearly impossible, bug to fix, because I noticed it occurring back in March. I even created a bug thread for it. Now they get summoned with even less HP and no damage at all... It seems to only affect the Rust spell, though, so I'm normally forced to use vapourize to summon my Greedies while there.


Click here 


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-03-15
posté May 21, 2013, 18:59:02 | #52
It's not just rust, now even vaporize will still not summon a greedy with your water %

Oh and they added another bug, vaporize doesn't give you control of the doll when you summon it anymore 


Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-10-22
posté May 21, 2013, 19:42:47 | #53
Hm, I was unable to reproduce both of these bugs after summoning about 30+ Greedies. Unless the frequency is just really low, there must be something else controlling the activation of these bugs. The rust one always happens though, from what I've noticed.


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2011-12-03
posté May 28, 2013, 01:50:32 | #54
When doing the almanax that needed the shin larva drops, so running the dungeon.

While the dolls never attacked the eggs that spawn larva, they used to at least attack the boss. The greedy dolls no longer do so. Done over 10 runs now and every time, even with 4 greedies and no other larva or eggs on the map, they will not attack the boss and just stand there.


- Kat


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-03
posté May 30, 2013, 00:55:13 | #55
VooDoll not taking into account PVP Hp,


haven't people said this a million times?

Dear god, please please please please fix this bug. It is so crippling. .____.

K'mir dolls

Do not pull away targets on their turn. The mechanic is broken.

I am not sure if this is the "intended mechanic" aka the same excuse for the sudden chill nerf.

I would love to know if this is broken or the "intended mechanic" since neither of these nerfs are on the PDF

Thanks for finally fixing K'mir though, you're 50% there. Also thanks for the nerf to poison and sudden chill, it helped a lot. I was too op before.  


This post has been edited by aquabeauty - June 01, 2013, 01:00:41.
Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-02-29
posté June 06, 2013, 16:33:56 | #56
The Inflatable - so run away ... much distance...

my suggestion... give Sadd... and Osmadeus 100% control...


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-03
posté June 07, 2013, 04:43:42 | #57
Is this an intended mechanic or a bug? NOT SUREE so here we go!!


SRAMS, OSAS + TREE

How is it that you can TURN A TREE AROUND AND back stab it? How is that physically possible... I mean... seriously.

If this is an intended mechanic then turn us into a dead flower in a vase, because that would represent the sadida class better.

Name the passive

"dead flower in a vase"

Because at least dead classes in vases can be turned around ~____~


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté June 07, 2013, 11:30:58 | #58

Quote (aquabeauty @ 07 June 2013 04:43) *
Is this an intended mechanic or a bug? NOT SUREE so here we go!!


SRAMS, OSAS + TREE

How is it that you can TURN A TREE AROUND AND back stab it? How is that physically possible... I mean... seriously.

If this is an intended mechanic then turn us into a dead flower in a vase, because that would represent the sadida class better.

Name the passive

"dead flower in a vase"

Because at least dead classes in vases can be turned around ~____~
It was not a problem when Tree was making us invulnerable to dmg. I really miss invulnerability from this spell..


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-03
posté June 07, 2013, 15:25:18 | #59

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 07 June 2013 11:30) *

Quote (aquabeauty @ 07 June 2013 04:43) *
Is this an intended mechanic or a bug? NOT SUREE so here we go!!


SRAMS, OSAS + TREE

How is it that you can TURN A TREE AROUND AND back stab it? How is that physically possible... I mean... seriously.

If this is an intended mechanic then turn us into a dead flower in a vase, because that would represent the sadida class better.

Name the passive

"dead flower in a vase"

Because at least dead classes in vases can be turned around ~____~
It was not a problem when Tree was making us invulnerable to dmg. I really miss invulnerability from this spell..


Honestly, I miss the old tree too. However being able to be immune to damage for 6 turns would be pretty over powered, not so much for air but for the other two branches. Picture kiting water sadi with four dolls out . 2 turns of being immune to dmg, its just a bit much. Or earth coging one turn, treeing another. Air not so much just because air is extremely squishing, their dolls cost too much ap (so no doll mob) and its crawling with bugs.

However, is it op? when iops are stunning every turn, xelors are robbing half your ap every turn and running 2000+ dmg on 8 ap builds, panda's can dodge so much with barrel? I think not.

Still considering Grou hates our class or doesn't care about it. (thanks for fixing k'mir grou, but honestly I feel abandoned and neglected by you btw kmir on dolls is still glitched) I would settle for tree to stay as is but at least make us immune to effects alike to how UBS have immunity states. For example immune to ap steal, stunning, etc. I mean how can you stun a tree? turn it around and back stab it. Its too weak, and sadis are now too squishy, we can't possibly survive 6 turns to stack lone sadi but we can't use dolls because of the ap costs (does not apply to water) and the horrible bugs. Sadly we have been given no options to choose from, we are just a lame class. Q___Q

Tree should be a passive that also increases resistances per turn. Like for example: Turning into a tree activates the passive that increases your resistances per turn (alike to lone sadi, but allow for it to be used with dolls) then once per turn you can Tree just like it use to be or with the current tree that should be fixed to be immune to statuses. That would combo better with lone sadi, give us more survivability, it would even work with dolls well! It could also be the other way around, making it a passive that stacks resists and when you tree to remove states or be immune to states + stabalize (one or the other), that removes the resistance stacks and you have to restack. That kinda balances out for ubs too.


I highly doubt it would make water more op since they need their wp for their dolls, and I also doubt it would make earth too op since the branch is also lacking heavily on dmg and mechanics. If we were provided with more survivability through better mechanics we can actually last long enough to stack lone sadi. I would be a lot happier.

I really feel like all we need is a tweaking, glitch fixes and better mechanics / passives that compliment to fix the class. I don't want the class to be so op that it makes people unhappy, but I want to be happy too... I have been waiting since day one opening. All I am asking for is better, more reasonable mechanics. This class has me so depressed =[


This post has been edited by aquabeauty - June 07, 2013, 21:21:25.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté June 08, 2013, 07:26:21 | #60

Quote (aquabeauty @ 07 June 2013 15:25) *
Honestly, I miss the old tree too. However being able to be immune to damage for 6 turns would be pretty over powered, not so much for air but for the other two branches. Picture kiting water sadi with four dolls out . 2 turns of being immune to dmg, its just a bit much. Or earth coging one turn, treeing another. Air not so much just because air is extremely squishing, their dolls cost too much ap (so no doll mob) and its crawling with bugs.

However, is it op? when iops are stunning every turn, xelors are robbing half your ap every turn and running 2000+ dmg on 8 ap builds, panda's can dodge so much with barrel? I think not.

Still considering Grou hates our class or doesn't care about it. (thanks for fixing k'mir grou, but honestly I feel abandoned and neglected by you btw kmir on dolls is still glitched)
You have answered your own question.
Every class have something that could be considered overpowered like stun from iop, or double dmges from ecaflip, xelors reaping out all of your AP, pandawa's spell that pick up and make ally completly immune to dmg, etc.

If you look at those above you would understand that Tree with immunity to dmg/states and with added heal would be most balanced and most needed for Sadida. But like i suggested in other topic it would then need to have condition:must be cast at start of turn, so that we simply skip our turn to heal up at the WP cost. Sounds fair to me. And more fair if it would cost 2WP as it would not be possible to overabuse it. Maybe with added condition that it cannot be used every turn (immunity to Tree state after we turn back to human form for 1 turn) or with negative effect thatreduce our dmg in turn by 50% the tree spell will become useful tactically and still balanced and fun to use.

Current Tree is very bad. That must have been said, though this topic is about doll's AI bugs not about sadida spell's complains so we should discuss this in other topic.