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Nid's Sadida Thoughts and Suggestions
Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-02-02
posté May 03, 2013, 18:07:01 | #1
Nid's Sadida Thoughts and Suggestions I completely updated the topic. Check the changes down.

Hi I'd like to leave some personal thoughts abut the latest Sadi changes. I haven't came with anything before as I wanted to test them deeply with my Sadi, so I could build a better feedback.

The current Sadida is indeed a lot better than the one we had before patch, I however still see some issues related to AP cost and effects of certain spells. I don't know if that was a fear of making the class slightly overpowered, but it's clear that if some stuff were changed the class wouldn't become overpowered at all, at least not like the current Osamodas.

Doll Seed

The first issue is the AP cost, why does Doll Seed have to cost 3 AP to be summoned? I mean, isn't the cost of the activation already enough? I really think that if the cost of Doll Seed were 1 WP at level 9, and just 1 WP, a lot of issues could be fixed.

Another thing is that, Maddoll and Lethargic are barely used since they can only attack a single target at time. These dolls should be able to reduce the AP or MP from up to 3 targets in a turn.

The Block should gain at least 1.5 Lock per Sadida's level. The current version barely locks anything in PvE.

Inflatable should be able to heal up to 2 targets per turn, limited to 1/target though.

Edit: to prevent some trouble with Greedies, since they can be summoned for 1 AP, the Controlled effect shouldn't have to be applied right after summoning a doll.

Voodoll

Same as Doll Seed. Why AP cost? Isn't the WP cost already worth it? This spell would become less useless if the AP cost were taken away and the doll should return WP back to Sadida when it dies, if Savoir Faire is levelled (that's not happening right now).

Tree

This is a personal thought. The current spell looks good, I just wanted to add a new effect:
- Creates a Thorny Glyph around the Sadida with 100% of making the target lose 1 MP when walking.


Explodoll

The healing/damage effect is too low. It should have a base of 20 at level 20.

Doll Link

This spell evolves too slowly, it's frustrating. A second effect should be added not only to make it better, but also to give it a better purpose to be leveled.

- Reflects 0(10)% damage to the Vodooll (enemy).
- Absorbs 0(10)% of the damage to the Vodooll (ally).
- +0(15)% Damage per doll present in the battlefield. (max 45%)
- +0(15)% Healing per doll present in the battlefield. (max 45%)

Lone Sadida

I am a player that likes to avoid using dolls in the battlefield. However, sometimes I find that my build really lacks the versatility that dolls provide. I don't think it's wise at all to force Sadida Players to avoid summoning dolls. This spell should be changed in the opposite direction and give Sadis a buff when a doll is attacked by an enemy. It' work in the opposite way of Green Guard.

When a doll is attacked:
-0(40)% chance of triggering: Doll Guard (lv 1/20)

+0(50)% Damage
+0(50)% Healing

Earthquake

For Sadida's sake Grou! That spell looks cool but it's barely useful at all, forget about it! Completely change the way it works, I have a better idea, anything would be better idea anyways...

3 MP, 1-7 Range. 1 Cast per turn.

Effects:

(caster): skips current turn, enters in Seismic State (+15% damage per HP loss to Earthquake).
(area of effect of size 3): spawns an earthquake in the beginning of the next Sadida's turn.
Earthquake's Damage: 6(55), -1 MP (100%).

No one knows where it is going to spawn, only the Sadida. This spell gives a whole turn for enemies to move away and try to not end up inside the area of effect.

EDIT - New Stuff

Bramble Shield: what appears to be a bug (if it is) should be made not a bug. I mean, as long as the Bramble Shield is effective, it should be fair to only be able to cast it once every other turn on someone. But in order to do that, the effects of the bramble shield have to be enhanced. Right now they suck at damage reflection.

They have to reflect 70~80% of the damage reduced.

Ultra-Powerful and Greedies

Blocking is not the role of those dolls. They should not be able to lock anyone, Ultra-Powerfuls should avoid close combat at all costs. Greedies should still run for close combat, however they should not be able to lock, since that's the role of the Block.

The Block

The HP of that doll should be increased to 50~60% of Sadida's HP. It should gain 1.5 Lock per Sadida level (150 at 100). Considering it has only 1 MP and after the enemy runs away it becomes an useless doll in the battlefield.


I'll add more stuff when I have more time! Thanks, please give your feedback.


Well, If I had an idea to revamp Sadidas, I'd love to see them working like that:


Vaporize
2AP, 1-4 Range, Modifiable
-2(24) HP
-3(36) HP (crit)
(doll) controlled, returns 1 AP
(seed) summons Greedy, returns 2 AP

Tear
4 AP, 1 MP, 1-3 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-5(64) HP
-7(96) HP (crit)
-2(25) HP (totem's target) - Enemy
-3(37) HP (totem's target) - Enemy (crit)
+2(25) HP (totem's target) - Ally
+2(37) HP (totem's target) - Ally (crit)
(seed) summons Inflatable, returns 2 AP and 1 MP

Mudoll
3 AP, 0-4 Range, Modifiable
-2(33) HP - Enemy
-3(49) HP - Enemy (crit)
+2(33) HP - Ally
+3(49) HP Ally (crit)
If aimed at Voodoll: +4(47) HP
If aimed at Voodoll: +6(70) HP
(seed) summons a Healing Branch, returns 0 AP

Rust
5 AP, 2-4 Range, Modifiable
-3(44) HP - Enemy
-5(66) HP - Enemy
(doll) +10/100 Rust
(ally) +5(25)% Resist (all)

Drain
5 AP, 2-4 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-3(50) HP - Central Target
-5(75) HP - Central Target (crit)
+3(50) HP - Surrounding Allies
+5(75) HP - Surrounding Allies (crit)

Woodland Stench
3 AP, 1 MP, 1-4 Range, Modifiable
-4(46) HP
-6(69) HP (crit)
Intoxicated +1(15)
Intoxicated +2(22) (crit)
(seed) summons a Lethargic, Returns 1 AP and 1 MP.

Poisoned Wind
2 AP, 1-3 Range, Modifiable
-1(10) HP
-1(15) HP (crit)
Tetatoxin +1(13)
Tetatoxin +1(20) (crit)
(seed) summons a Poison Flower, Returns 0 AP

Sudden Chill
4 AP, 2-2 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-4(45) HP
-6(67) HP
Sudden Chill +1(20)
Sudden Chill +1(30) (crit)
(seed) summons a Mimik, Returns 2 AP

K'mir
3 AP, 1-2 Range, Fixed, Linear
-2(28) HP
-3(43) HP (crit)
Pulls 1 square
Stabilizes and Links the target to Sadida for current turn.
Doesn't damage allies
Intoxicated +1(15)
Intoxicated +1(22) (crit)
1 per turn

Gust
3 AP, 0-3 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-2(24) HP
-3(36) HP (crit)
Pushes 1 square
Doesn't damage allies
Intoxicated +1(15)
Intoxicated +1(22) (crit)

Bramble Armors reflect 50% of damage reduced.
After armor is broken, target enters in Bramblophobia state, immune to Armor-To-Be, for 1 turn.


Bramble
4 AP, 2-4 Range, Modifiable
-4(47) HP
-5(70) HP (crit)
-1 max MP (100%)
-1 max MP (150%) (crit)
-1 max MP (100%) (crit)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +2(30)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +3(45) (crit)
(seed) summons The Madoll, Returns 2 AP
(totem) -20 Hypermovement
(totem) -30 Hypermovement (crit)

Fertilizer
5 AP, 1-3 Range, Modifiable, Linear
-5(56) HP
-7(84) HP (crit)
Steals 1 MP (100%)
Steals 1 MP (150%) (crit)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +3(40)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +5(60) (crit)
(seed) summons an Aggressive Bramble, Returns 2 AP

Wild Grass
3 AP, 1 MP, 1-3 Range, Modifiable
-4(48) HP
-6(72) HP (crit)
(totem) -5(58) HP
(totem) -7(84) HP (crit)
(ally) Amor-To-Be +2(32)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +3(48) (crit)
(seed) summons The Block, Returns 1 AP, 1 MP


Earthquake
3 MP, 1-5 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-4(55) HP (circle)
-6(82) HP (crit) (circle)
-1 MP (100%)
-1 MP (150%) (crit)
Seismic State (+10% to Earthquake per damage taken)
Skips current turn
Spawns an Earthquake in the selected area during the start of next turn.

Manifold Bramble
6 AP, 4-5 Range
-5(71) HP (circle)
-7(106) HP (crit) (circle)
No enemy in AoE: Thorny Glyph: -1 MP (100%), -2(40) HP per square crossed. +2 AP (sadi)
No enemy in AoE: Thorny Glyph: -1 MP (150%), -3(60) HP per square crossed. +2 AP (sadi)

Dolls and Living Plants
The dolls that I'm not posting here have not been updated.


  • Lethargic: spell costs 1 AP now, 1 per target per turn. Can drain AP from up to 2 different targets. Has 2 AP.
  • Madoll: spell costs 1 MP now, 1 per target per turn. Can drain MP from up to 2 different targets. Has 2 AP.
  • Block: gains 1.5 lock per Sadida level now.
  • Ultra-Powerful: name changed to Mimik

  • Healing Branch
0 MP, 2 AP, 20% of Sadida's health. Gains 1% resistance per Sadida's level. Same water mastery.
Natural Care: heals 2(20) HP, +1 AP (ally), +2 AP (dolls) (circle). Costs 2 AP and has 0 range.

  • Poison Flower
0 MP, 3 AP, 25% of Sadida's health. Gains 1% resistance per Sadida's level. Same air mastery.
Bloom: Intoxicated +3(30), Tetatoxin +2(20), Sudden Chill +2(20) (circle). Costs 2 AP and has 0 range.

  • Aggressive Bramble
0 MP, 7 AP, 30% of Sadida's health. Gains 1% resitance per Sadida's level. Same earth mastery.
Carnage: pulls 6 squares, deals 4(40) earth damage, -2 max MP (100%). 4 AP, 1-7 range. Linear, 2 per turn, 1 per target.


Dolly Sacrifice
4(1) AP, 1(5) Range, No LoS
Kills Voodoll, Dolls and Plants: Heals 3(16) HP (chromatic), +1 WP.


Voodoll
4(2) AP, 1 WP. 2(4) Range, Modifiable.
Has 20% of Sadida's HP. 0.5% Resistance per Sadida's level.
Redirects 100% of the damage to the target.
Controlled.
Has a spell named Nettling Tongue: changes linked target, 1-7 range. No LoS

The totem doesn't lose HP when it's damaged like now, it works as the previous totem. It, however, loses HP when hit by enemies, which means that it can be easily killed. When damaged by allies, the resistance of the target is what is taken into consideration and when damaged by enemies what counts is the doll's resistance.

Sic'Em More
Gives +1 AP to plants.
Max of 2 per turn.
The other characteristics have not been changed.

Explodoll
+2(20) Healing (chromatic)
-2(20) HP (chromatic)

Doll Link
Transfers 0(10)% of damage to voodoll.
+0(5)% resistance per doll in the battlefield.

Knowledge of Dolls
+0(3) Leadership
+0(100)% chance of gaining 1 WP when a doll dies.

Green Guard
Gives +1 AP to plants when triggered.
The other characteristics have not been changed.
0(40)% chance of triggering.
Cannot be triggered by friendly fire.

Lone Sadida
Works with Voodoll and Plants


- Pangea


This post has been edited by Niddhoggy - May 08, 2013, 03:01:29.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté May 03, 2013, 22:38:39 | #2
Only 20 dmg from explosion? Thats very low and won't stop anyone from killing dolls... and is not really rewarding. Anyway we will get 20 explosion with current explodoll... just that we need to wait till 200lvl, wich sucks. When i told people about explosion doing 20 base dmg at 200lvl, they said that its very low dmg, too low, and they felt sorry for the sadida.

Also why you think ultrapowerful or greedy is not supposed to lock? They are supposed to lock as much as a player with 0 lock. Without that i don't know if i would be even able to play effectively with dolls other then blocker! The fact that enemy need to risk to get around doll is somehow rewarding and still hepfull in pve. If they would ntobe able to lock then i wouldn't be able to support allies with anything else then blocker. I don't want that to happen. I would hate this change.

And why we gain only max 45% dmg from having dolls (+15 per doll).... it means that we have to play with 3 dolls, and next doll wont change anything? That's so wrong. Osamodas can use all possible Ladership to summon brutal creatures, and with your suggestion i will be fine with... 3 dolls? And now we have 150% dmg bonus from Lone Sadida, but you will remove it to give us 45% dmg bonus? Huge nerf! Look at other classes, Rogues for example: they can use Bombs AND have dmg bonus to bombs AND have dmg bonus from initiative. And if i am not wrong they can have up to 140% dmg bonus from inititative, wich also give them a chance to be those who start fight first. Enutrofs gain dmg bonus from mines, drhellzerker movement, from prospecting... it's not like they have either dmg bonus from mines or from drhellzerker or from prospecting - they have all of the above available. So i agree to change LoneSadida to something that boost our dmg when we have dolls, thats good concept and i thought the same should be made, but limiting this bonus to 3 dolls is simply not fair and it smells like nerf from the nerf.

Voodoll - i have to disagree with the cost. Considering it have 40% of enemy HP, the cost of 4AP is justified somehow, however it should not loose hp when allies hit it, so that we can use it longer. It should loose hp when enemy hit it only, to keep the possiblity for enemies to remove it.

As for Bramble shell i think it should stack and remain until it's "used" by enemy attacks. This way we could gather up to 100lvl bramble shell on someone who is not receiving dmg at this moment, as a preparation in-case it will get attacked later. The armor should not dissapear at the end of turn. That would make it fine enough to be used, especially with dolls slowing down enemy (-mp or lock).

Tree is not nice at all. The effect look ok, but the numbers are too low. I like the idea of throny ground around Tree, but its not necesary. Though it's cool idea. Maybe throny ground should appear aroun every doll too (when you cast tree)?.... Anyway i still think Tree spell could have been done better, with immunity to dmg, healing, proper cost and effect.

As for Dolls i have to say that whole WP cost is silly. We have WP cost only because it limit us to 6 dolls max, but becasue of this we may still loose WP permanently when we want to summon doll while under Critical Failure or when we get WP stolen, when our dol turn to weredoll in UB fight, or we may simply be unable to play effectively as other classes normally can in dungeons where WP is blocked from usage at certain circumstances (Kokoko dungeon challange, or WP block in Tsar dungeon from monsters, etc). And the worse is... Nun dungeon, wich punish you with huge dmg when you cast WP spell. Imagine sadida - summoner playing there?

We already know that giving Sadida unlimited access to dolls is OK and thats very good change. The next step forward should be to remove the WP cost from Dolls. But as for AP cost i think that seed should cost 1AP, not 0AP. With 1AP Sadida will be able to summon dolls for 3AP, wich is fair cost. Currently we can do that but only AFTER we have summoned one doll and Sacrificed it with Dolly Sacrifice... i am asking myself: why not letting us summon dolls with 1AP for seed right away? Everybody complain abotu the current cost of dolls so much...

Also if it comes to some summoning spells:

Mudoll - it should summon Inflatable!
Sadida's Tear - it should summon Greedy and give back 3AP to Sadida
Woodland Stench - it should summon Ultrapowerful doll (who is gonna use this spell to make Lethargic when we have cheaper in cost spell to make Lethargic : Poisoned Wind)

And Doll itself should have no LoS to be placed, so that we can summon Greedy with the help of Sadida's Tear behind the target.

I am working on the changes now and i have only earth branch left to finish i will post it soon... propably in new topic.


Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-02-02
posté May 03, 2013, 22:55:24 | #3
@Kukuihimonji

The 20 damage on Explodoll I said is Chromatic. Which means that it's influenced by your highest mastery.


I believe that you have a different point on Sadidas than me. For me dolls are just a way to get some versatility or to boost your damage, they are in no way supposed to be your main source of damage - That's how I see Sadidas. Dolls are weak creatures with low HP, they're not an Osamoda's summon.

We could increase the effectiveness of my Lone Sadida's idea, but I'm afraid that summon Sadidas would eventually get way too popular because of that, that's why I put this limitation.

Now about Tree, I think it's nice. I mean, I use it all the time and these 50% resistances are very helpful. The healing might be a little low, but what can we expect? I think that immunity would be a little too much if you ask me. The thorny glyph idea comes from the perspective that as a tree you can control your roots, and make surrounding enemies lose MP. Besides that, Tree is fine. The stabilized state is one of it's best points, since you can't be moved by anything.

Now about Dolls. I suppose that AP cost would be better, 1 AP at max level. Savoir Faire would have to be changed though.

As for Voodoll, it's exactly because of that, Kikui. It dies too fast right now for a spell that costs a lot of AP to be used. I once had an idea of making it possible to control the Voodoll and give to it a spell that changes it's linked target. That would be very useful since it'd be possible to switch between support and damage, the only problem of that is that it's current % HP restriction would make that idea nonviable. What do you think of taking it away and making Voodolll have a % of Sadida's HP (enemies can kill them now, but not allies).

I used to be able to reach level 100 Bramble Shell with 10 AP and 2 crits at least, it's really possible to do it right now in Moowolf Set. The main issue is that it doesn't reflect much damage. It's not like Coagulation, as Sacrier you get Coagulation by attacking someone, right? As a Sadi you lose a whole turn to shield up, which means you are not doing any damage to an enemy if you don't have dolls out.


What do you think about my Earthquake's idea?



For the Water Branch, I don't see much problem, besides Tear's AP cost, it's too high. It'd be much better if it cost 4 AP and 1 MP.

As for the Thorny Glyph of Manifold Brambe, it should do damage as well.

I haven't touched the air branch yet, but from what I can see, Kihmir should cost just AP and maybe lower, like 3 AP, considering the fact that it doesn't lasts for the next turn like before.

- Pangea

PS: I'm looking forward to see your thoughts!!!
 


This post has been edited by Niddhoggy - May 03, 2013, 22:55:55.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté May 04, 2013, 00:59:12 | #4
Current K'mir is totally useless, unless you just want to use it for dmg but you could as well use Woodland Stench for better results. The fact that enemy is not stabilized in it's turn makes the K'mir spell not worth using. Especially if i want to have ultrapowerful doll with k'mir - what's the point of that? I can move enemy, sure, but i can move enemy away from me with gust + doll control combo with better results. That MP cost is just cruelty of Ankama telling us to not use K'mir. They said they can remove it... but they didn't.... and it seems that only because of the Intoxicated added to K'mir. I'd say remove the Intoxicated state from K'mir and remove MP cost, also make the link last untill the end of target turn. Make it low on dmg if needed but the beautiful tactical and support aspect of this spell got removed, and i am really angry about this change.

About explodoll i know you mean 20 chromatic dmg, but it's still very low. IT would be for sure better then what we have now but i think it should be 40 chromatic dmg/heal to make it worth. Notice it cannot be triggered with Dolly Sacrifice, so doll need to die from dmg. Also it apply only to melee range, so enemies might kill doll from distance (not all can, for example Sram can't, but belive me sram doesnt need to kill dolls in order to kill Sadida - it just goes for Sadida right away and dolls only help Sram to reach Sadida thanks to Guile).

Also to make fire doll ally-friendly, it would be nice if explodoll could heal back the dmg that fire doll inflicted, at least most of it. And since fire doll inflict 50 base dmg, explodoll could heal 40 dmg up.

Anyway lets say we have blocker doll - before it's killed it takes time because it have more hp then other dolls (at least i hope dolls will have more resist so they wont die fast). Therefore it would be good if the dmg would be decent. Sadida lack of dmg bonus when it play with dolls. The dmg that dolls deal is not high either, however it should punish those who are silly enough to kill dolls in melee (those iops). And 20 dmg is not gonna make an effect even chromatic. With average dmg of Sadida vs average resit on enemy it will inflict ~40 dmg or so, with base 20 dmg. And we are talking about fighting enemies who can deal 1000-2000 dmg per turn (pvp) and about UB fights. Sadida already takes time to kill something. If the explodoll would deal decent dmg then at least doll's death will be rewarding. 20 dmg is definetly too low.

And look there are classes that can gain AP or additional dmg boost in some way (Masqueraider, Rogue, Iop, Foggernaut, Ecaflip) and Explodoll is just like that another source of dmg that may happen, but might not (might not if enemy wont kill doll or if enemy kill doll at distance). And yeah: 20 dmg when 1 doll die is not going to make a difference. It should be powerful enough to make enemies think twice before killing it, but not too powerful to not make OP. 40 dmg/heal is the fine number for the Doll cost (such as blocker that deal no dmg and have highest summoning cost). dolls itself are not doing much dmg, and people are asking for dmg boost to dolls, so here we have explodoll, it's just too weak.

As for bramble shell i think that it reflect 50% of dmg for a reason. You can use 4AP to cast bramble to deal dmg for 4AP or you can use Bramble or 4AP to protect youself from 2AP dmg and inflict dmg equal to 2AP. Also heal is supposed to be stronger then Bramble Shell, or else it will be pointless to even use heal as it give Heal resist. I've heard on pure earth build Bramble Shell is great. The good thing about Bramble shell is that it can be used on allies, unlike coagulation that apply only to sacrier. The bad thing is that it dissapears even if target with bramble shell was not attacked, and it can be re-applied only every 2nd turn, wich is also lame.

I think it's the way we can stack or re-stack bramble shell should be changed, not the amount of dmg reflected. However problem might be because Bramble shell can protect from 100 dmg (boosted by earth dmg) only, where if 10 dmg = 1AP would mean that with 10AP we should gain lvl 100 bramble shell... but it's not possible unless they make Fertilizer give us 50lvl of bramble shell and Bramble give us 40lvl of bramble shell. But then again there is this problem: 1AP = 10dmg appears as base but the more AP we have the more dmg per AP we can deal, and usually 1AP = 11dmg and 2AP = 24dmg (so 12dmg per 1AP), and it increases (increases even more in dmg dealing class). We can see some classes dealing 100 base dmg with 6AP 1MP or similar costs, wich only shows that Bramble Shell is too weak to be effective protection.

This is why i think Bramble shell should be with max 200lvl. Mechanics don't need to be changed, but lvl gained from bramble/fertilizer/wild grass spells should be increased to adapt.

That change will make Bramble shell perfect and balanced with the Dmg per AP that players deal.

About Earthquake idea - i don't like it. It's nice idea for a spell but it makes me think about Ecaflip's Hunter spell, though just without teleportation but with wide aoe. And it cannot be used more then once wich is also what i don't like. Don't get me wrong i liked the earthquake that we had before revamp. Though it was not perfect. The main thing that i disliked was that i could hit empty cells. I don't mind the spell to hit me, allies or enemies as long as it always hit someone. If i won't hit anyone then i feel like wasting MP.

I also don't like current Earthquake. 2 cell circle is a nerfed aoe, the same that we have on manifold bramble already. Earthquake should be 3 cell aoe. And i am not able to make Earthquake if the center of aoe is blocked by battlefield's obstacle (such as tree that someone have planted, or simple rock or any other obstacle). I am also unable to earthquake in the direction i want to if the cell in front of me is blocked by obstacle - it sucks.

The earthquake should have center of the aoe randomly 0~3 cell away from random target - this way it will always hit someone (with 3 cell circle aoe). I would love that Earthquake, espeically with dolls moved to enemy - it would give better chance to aoe enemy then me (however there will be still chance that only doll will be hit or only i will be hit, but the more the dolls or the more the enemies, thehigher the chance will be that i will hit them not self). That change will make Earthquake cool when outnumbered by enemies.

As for Voodoll control - my idea is to make Sic'Em More give Controled state and "Mobilized" state to Voodoll (+MP). I think Voodoll should have base 0MP, but we should be able to control it and move it to different cell.

I am still unsure about manifold bramble, wich is why i didn't posted my suggestions yet.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-01-19
posté May 04, 2013, 20:03:31 | #5
Yes, I agree that earthquake should be changed into something similar to Niddhoggys version, since it’s often pointless to cast and too much of a gamble. A sadida shouldn’t have random aoe spells, since he will hit dolls and allies. And such a spell would have great synergy with earths MP debuff since it might be hard to get out of the aoe. It would work as a combo finisher after you’ve drained the target or MP. Right now we need to stomp 3-5 times per turn which is annoying for teammates and me. And earthquake is mostly used by water sadidas as a level 1 spell to trigger Green Guard by stomping at the edge. I don’t really like Kikuhimonjis suggestion about earthquake, since it would still be unfriendly in team battles and wouldn’t have synergy with all the other earth spells. Spells which might hurt your teammates aren’t worth it. Niddhoggys version would make our locking blockers and MP drain worthwhile if we can keep the target inside the aoe field until next turn. If would give our blocker dolls and earth spell an ultimate purpose other than just kite and lock.

Lone Sadida is something I’m getting too addicted to as an earth sadi, yet I really hate it. I can’t summon anything unless I want to lose 150% damage. And I don’t know why we should lose such a buff when we summon in the first place. Lone sadida should give half the buff if dolls are summoned, and stay on the character when he summons. It’s like removing all the pp from an enu if he steps out of the mine.

I agree with Kikuhimonji that K’Mir and Woodland Stench need to be reworked. K’Mir is a wasted spell slot which sadidas will never use now, and Woodland Stench should summon a UP doll because sadidas need to spend a whole turn to summon UP with WS. It’s stupid to watch how easily the same doll dies in the first turn. Air sadis are so dependent on the UP dolls, yet only 2 spells can summon them.

Tree is actually pretty decent for earth sadidas even though it’s so WP dependant. The increased resist and heal combined with our Doll Link makes me very tanky compared to before, and I can always buff my defence further with BS. Gaining damage immunity would be a bad idea imo.


This post has been edited by GreenEmerald - May 05, 2013, 17:22:36.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté May 04, 2013, 20:49:50 | #6
Dmg immunity worked fine before. The resit bonus on current tree make it useful after you hit 100lvl, but earlier it doesn't give much resist. And so few resist won't even protect you from Sram stacking Hemmorhage on you or backstabing you, it won't protect you from anything at all, it will just make you receive some less dmg. Still for me it's better to push enemy away and block it with dolls without loosing WP permanently then to get this Tree we had. And i also don't like how they made Tree useful for Sadida earth with fake smiling that the dmg is chromatic - it's still better for earth due to mp stealing. And its also not good to make us choose to permanently loose doll for slight protection or to not use it and keep the ability to place doll. Obviously with lone sadida you have no doubts as you won't use dolls anyway. But i hate lone Sadida the way it works. It's exactly as you describe it: it's like making enutrof loose pp bonus or making eniripsa unable to stack hygiene if it have coney summoned or maybe like making rogue loose Initiator dmg boost when it place 1 bomb... seriously i feel they hate summoners a lot.

Earthquake is bad as it is. And the suggestion Nidhoggy made is only making it to be a bigger version of Manifold Bramble. What's the point of having similar aoe spells? The whole concept about Earthquake is to make it powerful for low cost but random, with risk. Aka not reliable but might save you if you lucky enough. My suggestion will improve the concept by tricking the chance to hit enemy by moving dolls to enemy - if doll is hit, enemy might get hit too. Sure we may loose doll because of that, but that's the cost of strong spell with cheap cost - a risk. If they would make Earthquake with no risk then it would be just another boring aoe spell.

Not to mention that rather no one will avoid the aoe from Nid's suggestion that Earthquake will do, if we could aim it ourself. That's just not fun. I like covering myself behind Voodoll and kill enemies with Earthquake even if they are far away from me at the map edge. I have to heal Voodoll from time to time when it got hurt, but it's fun way to kill monsters.

And you know if your allies are about to die, but earthquake might save them (or kill them anyway) then you can use it. The worse thing that will happen would be that allies will die 1 turn earlier and the best would be that you won. It's worth the risk. And you have water spells to heal up the wounds, right? You also have bramble shell and if only it would stack and last untill dmg remove it, then you coudl protect allies with bramble shell and then spam Earthquake.

Aimable Earthquake will ruin the fun of the spell.

You should try blocking some bridge with doll or voodoll and play with other Sadida for fun with just earthquakes and mudoll to heal up eachother just in case. Make a bet who will hit enemies more often - i enjoy that kind of time spend in game.

And like i said we already have Manifold Bramble with similar effect to what Nid suggest just that with different range and 1cell circle bigger aoe with mechanic that make it hit in next turn, like if it change anything with this huge area. In other words you will always use remaining 3MP to use this spell for more dmg output, instead of risking being hit or hurting allies. Removing gamble aspect of Earthquake is like removing Dodge/Lock mechanic. You will make it more tactical maybe but ... also more obvious who will win. I hate when people leave pvp if they see they cannot win. And if i use Earthquake - they stay because they have hope that i will hurt myself instead.

They could make Earthquake never hit allies or deal 0 dmg to allies maybe (it would either hit nothing or enemies only), and that would be still better change, but i don't think it's what developers wanted Earthquake to be. They made it deal friendly fire on purpose, thats how i feel. If they gonna keep it then i would rather make them remove the chance to hit nothing at all.

Oh the fun with Big battlefield such as those in Schneck zone in zinit 2... i loved when i could hit enemies from 30+ cell away with a bit of luck. That made me feel special as it was better then Cra's range (though i could hit myself instead). I don't like current range limitation on Earthquale and those awkward centers of aoe that may be blocked by obstacle and i also dont like the idea of limiting the range to 1-7 or anything at all. Earthquake should be possible to hit enemy ANYWHERE, even if it hides, and it should stay risky for high dmg, or else removing the risk will make it a weak spell, similar to every other MP-cost spells that are just addition to dmg.... boooring.

And my version of Earthquake would still make blockig dolls useful - with 3 dolls at enemy it will be 4:1 chance that enemy will be hit by an aoe! But enemy still have chance to not get hit, wich is fair and i accept it and i even like it.

Instead Dev's could make Manifold Bramble work the way Nid suggested Earthquake to work, but i think current Manifold Bramble is fine as it is, with the range limitation to make it unable to hit in melee.

And i doubt dev's want to give Sadida an reliable 1-7 cell range aoe spell that may hit even 9th and 10th cell away, as it will make Cra's look poor with their own range. We should be happy that we have earthquake wich allows us to hit that far, but again i belive we got this ability only beacuse of the spell randomness. I don't want to make Sadida even more messed up or more boring. So... nope i don't like this idea and i doubt i will. Yet it's just my opinion, but i would hate such revamp as i like using all spells that class can give and this change will make me not like to use Earthquake at all.

And yeah i think that Earthquake hitting Sadida to trigger Green Guard is nice combo, but shouldn't be so easily triggered when you are near wall (wich is why i also dislike current earthquake as in some situations it removes the gambling part of the spell).


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-01-19
posté May 07, 2013, 10:51:32 | #7
Am I the only one who thinks that hurting yourself to trigger GG is a fail mechanic to begin with?

“Durr hurr, I’m hurting myself on purpose so the dolls get angry. Now avenge my lost hp by attacking someone else!” Why not just replace it with a lesser permanent buff to your dolls so Sic’Em can stack with it? Why do we even have an active and a passive way to trigger Nettle? Oh, you actually trigger GG, great but now you can’t spend your remaining 1 AP on anything. Make GG into something that stacks with Nettle, and doesn’t make you kill yourself to trigger it.

Yes, earthquake is nice in low dungeons like Schnek, Gobball and tofu dungeons, and I use it frequently to wipe out the low creatures. But it’s never used in serious teams, and a sadidas will never level it to max. The ecaflips are the masters of gambling spells, yet they have no spell with a chance to hurt allies and themselves. And if they did, then they would never max that spell either.

I also think that it’s unfair for earth sadidas that water sadidas want to keep the current earthquake to trigger GG. Can we get a water spell from you guys who would benefit only earth? Please? We can keep it as level 1 too.

I know that there are many spells which are just as good for earth when they’re level 1, like Gust. But air sadidas still use Gust in serious battles, and they can still damage while they position.

I rarely use earthquake anymore since the new mechanic makes it hit me most of the times (yay, great for water sadis, right?). I would rather save them for Tree heals, and maybe stomp once if I’m full and no teammate is in front of me. I would like it if we had some ultimate goal behind our locks and MP drain, because now it seems like they were just added to our old spells for the heck of it. We have such great potential to keep an opponent in one place, yet we can’t utilize it for anything other than kite them around the map until they get either 100 Hypermovement or die.

A spell similar to Niddhoggs version would benefit earth sadis a lot. We would have a bigger reason behind all our MP drains and locking dolls, and it would complete our earth spells as a complete combo set, with WG for close combat, MB for far fights and earthquake as finisher after all the MP drains. Right now… earthquake has no true place in the earth branch.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté May 07, 2013, 11:03:02 | #8
My suggestion will no longer make it viable for water sadidas or at least not that reliable as it is now as it will be unknown if it will hit Sadida even near wall. It will be also viable for Earth Sadidas as blockers will receive very low dmg from Earthquake, yet they will keep enemy in place and will make it possible for Earthuqake to spawn at them and enemy.

Ni'd idea is just Manifold Bramble with different mechanic (appear the next turn) and 1 bit higher aoe (3 cell in circle instead of 2). I mean... what's the point to have 2 ranged controlable aoe's? The beautfy of Earthquake is that it's random. You know you may never know when Earthquake will really hit and Sadida only makes it happen, but can't tell where.

However i just got that idea that Sadida might be never hit by Earthquake it cast. Maybe if allies gather near Sadida (HUG ME!) then they won't get hurt by earthquakes? A safe zone could be 2 cells in circle around Sadida. This will make it impossible for Sadida to trigger Green Guard with it and will be team firendly and easier to aim those at distance, regardless of the range difference.  


Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-10-22
posté May 07, 2013, 11:21:49 | #9

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 07 May 2013 11:03) *
My suggestion will no longer make it viable for water sadidas or at least not that reliable as it is now as it will be unknown if it will hit Sadida even near wall. It will be also viable for Earth Sadidas as blockers will receive very low dmg from Earthquake, yet they will keep enemy in place and will make it possible for Earthuqake to spawn at them and enemy.

Ni'd idea is just Manifold Bramble with different mechanic (appear the next turn) and 1 bit higher aoe (3 cell in circle instead of 2). I mean... what's the point to have 2 ranged controlable aoe's? The beautfy of Earthquake is that it's random. You know you may never know when Earthquake will really hit and Sadida only makes it happen, but can't tell where.

However i just got that idea that Sadida might be never hit by Earthquake it cast. Maybe if allies gather near Sadida (HUG ME!) then they won't get hurt by earthquakes? A safe zone could be 2 cells in circle around Sadida. This will make it impossible for Sadida to trigger Green Guard with it and will be team firendly and easier to aim those at distance, regardless of the range difference.

-1

Don't change my earthquake. I depend on being able to nettled myself to do well in PvP. QQ


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-01-19
posté May 07, 2013, 12:03:11 | #10

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 07 May 2013 11:03) *
My suggestion will no longer make it viable for water sadidas or at least not that reliable as it is now as it will be unknown if it will hit Sadida even near wall. It will be also viable for Earth Sadidas as blockers will receive very low dmg from Earthquake, yet they will keep enemy in place and will make it possible for Earthuqake to spawn at them and enemy.

Ni'd idea is just Manifold Bramble with different mechanic (appear the next turn) and 1 bit higher aoe (3 cell in circle instead of 2). I mean... what's the point to have 2 ranged controlable aoe's? The beautfy of Earthquake is that it's random. You know you may never know when Earthquake will really hit and Sadida only makes it happen, but can't tell where.

However i just got that idea that Sadida might be never hit by Earthquake it cast. Maybe if allies gather near Sadida (HUG ME!) then they won't get hurt by earthquakes? A safe zone could be 2 cells in circle around Sadida. This will make it impossible for Sadida to trigger Green Guard with it and will be team firendly and easier to aim those at distance, regardless of the range difference.
It wont be team friendly at all. It would be a solo spell. Not only will it hurt melee players (and everyone who need to position themselves), but it will also place random penalty tiles on the map which makes it hard for the melee players to reach targets. And your aoe resistant dolls will still die pretty fast if you need to surround a target with dolls to hit.

And it won't be just another MB. It requires MP and doll support/Mp drains to work, which you need to carefully plan. MB is a simple target spell which works instantly.


This post has been edited by GreenEmerald - May 07, 2013, 12:04:06.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-05-25
posté May 07, 2013, 12:19:43 | #11

Quote (Moongrove89 @ 07 May 2013 11:21) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 07 May 2013 11:03) *
My suggestion will no longer make it viable for water sadidas or at least not that reliable as it is now as it will be unknown if it will hit Sadida even near wall. It will be also viable for Earth Sadidas as blockers will receive very low dmg from Earthquake, yet they will keep enemy in place and will make it possible for Earthuqake to spawn at them and enemy.

Ni'd idea is just Manifold Bramble with different mechanic (appear the next turn) and 1 bit higher aoe (3 cell in circle instead of 2). I mean... what's the point to have 2 ranged controlable aoe's? The beautfy of Earthquake is that it's random. You know you may never know when Earthquake will really hit and Sadida only makes it happen, but can't tell where.

However i just got that idea that Sadida might be never hit by Earthquake it cast. Maybe if allies gather near Sadida (HUG ME!) then they won't get hurt by earthquakes? A safe zone could be 2 cells in circle around Sadida. This will make it impossible for Sadida to trigger Green Guard with it and will be team firendly and easier to aim those at distance, regardless of the range difference.

-1

Don't change my earthquake. I depend on being able to nettled myself to do well in PvP. QQ
I was using Rust for the same purpose before the revamp. Sadly it seems Ankama plan to make Sadida not trigger Green Guard by itself. However i think that there should be spell that hurt Sadida to trigger it, as water sadida's might need it, therefore i was suggesating to make Drain able to cast on self to heal all dolls on the field (or even all allies) by hurting sadida (wich might trigger green guard). This would be great spell for water sadidas and will no longer require water sadida to waste spell exp in pve for earth branch.

@GreenEmerald - it will be team friendly. You will however need to cast it while near allies to not hurt them. Will be... situational. Note some classes have auras that also work when you are close to them (Eniripsa for example give absorbption aura) and they also might add similar aura to Feca that rise allies resistance when they are close to feca (i think it was suggested in feca revamp, too lazy to check). This spell will be useful in Mobile Arena fights and in UB, also at start of group pvp when enemies are still far away. It will be again risky to hurt allies if people spread out though.

And the suggested by Nid Earthquake does not need any suport of dolls, you can simply aim it where enemy will HAVE TO MOVE to attack you/get closer to you, or it will have to waste it;s own turn. So it's even pointless to make it appear in the 2nd turn. You will also ruin the fun to kill something far away that normal spells can't reach if you will limit the aoe to 7 cell range. And i hardly doubt Ankama will give Sadida an attacking spell with cell range higher then 5. By suggesting this you may make them even nerf Sadida in other way just to let you have that 1 spell, and i would hate if that would happen.

Oh and if allies cant see where you aim then you will have to talk each time: "please you don't move 2 cell to the left and the other one please you dont move 3 cells back" to make allies not walk in the aoe zone. You will waste a lot of time typing messages on where to not step for this spell to be "friendly". It's not a solution to anything.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - May 07, 2013, 12:21:38.
Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-02-02
posté May 08, 2013, 02:46:27 | #12
Well, If I had an idea to revamp Sadidas, I'd love to see them working like that:


Vaporize
2AP, 1-4 Range, Modifiable
-2(24) HP
-3(36) HP (crit)
(doll) controlled, returns 1 AP
(seed) summons Greedy, returns 2 AP

Tear
4 AP, 1 MP, 1-3 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-5(64) HP
-7(96) HP (crit)
-2(25) HP (totem's target) - Enemy
-3(37) HP (totem's target) - Enemy (crit)
+2(25) HP (totem's target) - Ally
+2(37) HP (totem's target) - Ally (crit)
(seed) summons Inflatable, returns 2 AP and 1 MP

Mudoll
3 AP, 0-4 Range, Modifiable
-2(33) HP - Enemy
-3(49) HP - Enemy (crit)
+2(33) HP - Ally
+3(49) HP Ally (crit)
If aimed at Voodoll: +4(47) HP
If aimed at Voodoll: +6(70) HP
(seed) summons a Healing Branch, returns 0 AP

Rust
5 AP, 2-4 Range, Modifiable
-3(44) HP - Enemy
-5(66) HP - Enemy
(doll) +10/100 Rust
(ally) +5(25)% Resist (all)

Drain
5 AP, 2-4 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-3(50) HP - Central Target
-5(75) HP - Central Target (crit)
+3(50) HP - Surrounding Allies
+5(75) HP - Surrounding Allies (crit)

Woodland Stench
3 AP, 1 MP, 1-4 Range, Modifiable
-4(46) HP
-6(69) HP (crit)
Intoxicated +1(15)
Intoxicated +2(22) (crit)
(seed) summons a Lethargic, Returns 1 AP and 1 MP.

Poisoned Wind
2 AP, 1-3 Range, Modifiable
-1(10) HP
-1(15) HP (crit)
Tetatoxin +1(13)
Tetatoxin +1(20) (crit)
(seed) summons a Poison Flower, Returns 0 AP

Sudden Chill
4 AP, 2-2 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-4(45) HP
-6(67) HP
Sudden Chill +1(20)
Sudden Chill +1(30) (crit)
(seed) summons a Mimik, Returns 2 AP

K'mir
3 AP, 1-2 Range, Fixed, Linear
-2(28) HP
-3(43) HP (crit)
Pulls 1 square
Stabilizes and Links the target to Sadida for current turn.
Doesn't damage allies
Intoxicated +1(15)
Intoxicated +1(22) (crit)
1 per turn

Gust
3 AP, 0-3 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-2(24) HP
-3(36) HP (crit)
Pushes 1 square
Doesn't damage allies
Intoxicated +1(15)
Intoxicated +1(22) (crit)

Bramble Armors reflect 50% of damage reduced.
After armor is broken, target enters in Bramblophobia state, immune to Armor-To-Be, for 1 turn.


Bramble
4 AP, 2-4 Range, Modifiable
-4(47) HP
-5(70) HP (crit)
-1 max MP (100%)
-1 max MP (150%) (crit)
-1 max MP (100%) (crit)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +2(30)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +3(45) (crit)
(seed) summons The Madoll, Returns 2 AP
(totem) -20 Hypermovement
(totem) -30 Hypermovement (crit)

Fertilizer
5 AP, 1-3 Range, Modifiable, Linear
-5(56) HP
-7(84) HP (crit)
Steals 1 MP (100%)
Steals 1 MP (150%) (crit)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +3(40)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +5(60) (crit)
(seed) summons an Aggressive Bramble, Returns 2 AP

Wild Grass
3 AP, 1 MP, 1-3 Range, Modifiable
-4(48) HP
-6(72) HP (crit)
(totem) -5(58) HP
(totem) -7(84) HP (crit)
(ally) Amor-To-Be +2(32)
(ally) Armor-To-Be +3(48) (crit)
(seed) summons The Block, Returns 1 AP, 1 MP


Earthquake
3 MP, 1-5 Range, Modifiable, No LoS
-4(55) HP (circle)
-6(82) HP (crit) (circle)
-1 MP (100%)
-1 MP (150%) (crit)
Seismic State (+10% to Earthquake per damage taken)
Skips current turn
Spawns an Earthquake in the selected area during the start of next turn.

Manifold Bramble
6 AP, 4-5 Range
-5(71) HP (circle)
-7(106) HP (crit) (circle)
No enemy in AoE: Thorny Glyph: -1 MP (100%), -2(40) HP per square crossed. +2 AP (sadi)
No enemy in AoE: Thorny Glyph: -1 MP (150%), -3(60) HP per square crossed. +2 AP (sadi)

Dolls and Living Plants
The dolls that I'm not posting here have not been updated.


  • Lethargic: spell costs 1 AP now, 1 per target per turn. Can drain AP from up to 2 different targets. Has 2 AP.
  • Madoll: spell costs 1 MP now, 1 per target per turn. Can drain MP from up to 2 different targets. Has 2 AP.
  • Block: gains 1.5 lock per Sadida level now.
  • Ultra-Powerful: name changed to Mimik

  • Healing Branch
0 MP, 2 AP, 20% of Sadida's health. Gains 1% resistance per Sadida's level. Same water mastery.
Natural Care: heals 2(20) HP, +1 AP (ally), +2 AP (dolls) (circle). Costs 2 AP and has 0 range.

  • Poison Flower
0 MP, 3 AP, 25% of Sadida's health. Gains 1% resistance per Sadida's level. Same air mastery.
Bloom: Intoxicated +3(30), Tetatoxin +2(20), Sudden Chill +2(20) (circle). Costs 2 AP and has 0 range.

  • Aggressive Bramble
0 MP, 7 AP, 30% of Sadida's health. Gains 1% resitance per Sadida's level. Same earth mastery.
Carnage: pulls 6 squares, deals 4(40) earth damage, -2 max MP (100%). 4 AP, 1-7 range. Linear, 2 per turn, 1 per target.


Dolly Sacrifice
4(1) AP, 1(5) Range, No LoS
Kills Voodoll, Dolls and Plants: Heals 3(16) HP (chromatic), +1 WP.


Voodoll
4(2) AP, 1 WP. 2(4) Range, Modifiable.
Has 20% of Sadida's HP. 0.5% Resistance per Sadida's level.
Redirects 100% of the damage to the target.
Controlled.
Has a spell named Nettling Tongue: changes linked target, 1-7 range. No LoS

The totem doesn't lose HP when it's damaged like now, it works as the previous totem. It, however, loses HP when hit by enemies, which means that it can be easily killed. When damaged by allies, the resistance of the target is what is taken into consideration and when damaged by enemies what counts is the doll's resistance.

Sic'Em More
Gives +1 AP to plants.
Max of 2 per turn.
The other characteristics have not been changed.

Explodoll
+2(20) Healing (chromatic)
-2(20) HP (chromatic)

Doll Link
Transfers 0(10)% of damage to voodoll.
+0(5)% resistance per doll in the battlefield.

Knowledge of Dolls
+0(3) Leadership
+0(100)% chance of gaining 1 WP when a doll dies.

Green Guard
Gives +1 AP to plants when triggered.
The other characteristics have not been changed.
0(40)% chance of triggering.
Cannot be triggered by friendly fire.

Lone Sadida
Works with Voodoll and Plants


- Pangea


This post has been edited by Niddhoggy - May 08, 2013, 02:56:53.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-01-19
posté May 09, 2013, 23:51:51 | #13
Nice idea with the plants. I’ve always wondered why we can’t just summon regular plants… as plant summoners.

The Aggressive Bramble pulling 6 squares seems too strong in my opinion, and I’m not sure if we even need another puller since we got the block. But I like the idea of summoning regular plants instead of plant dolls.

Not being able to trigger Green Guard by friendly fire seems like a huge nerf for some play styles, but I don’t understand why we can’t replace this passive with something else… maybe something which doesn’t need a trigger, and stacks with Sic’Em. It would make Sic’Em more unique and maybe even more useful. But I agree that hitting yourself to trigger the Green Guard passive is just silly.

The return of AP from summoning dolls means that people need to summon all their mimiks before choosing which spells they should cast. But it still works. A 10 AP sadida could summon one WS mimic and one SC mimic in the same turn. I like this idea as well.


This post has been edited by GreenEmerald - May 09, 2013, 23:59:42.
Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-02-02
posté May 10, 2013, 00:38:47 | #14
I'd love to see plants being added.

I suppose we could nerf that Aggressive Bramble a little. I gave to it a lot of power mainly because it cannot move and only attacks in linear. Maybe the pull effect could be reduced to 3 squares


Thanks for the feedback!