Back to forum.wakfu.com

By continuing to browse this website, you consent to the use of cookies, which enable us to offer you customised content and to collect site-visit statistics.
Click on this link for more information on cookies, and to customise your cookie preferences. X

No flash

40 things that should be changed.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté November 30, 2013, 01:43:25 | #1
40 things that should be changed. Be it rebalanced or revamped, call it as you wish, but here are the changes that would make Sadida the way it should have been revamped with the last revamp:

  1. Doll – remove the WP cost from this spell; make it turn doll to seed
  2. Dolly Sacrifice – make it not turn doll to seed but sacrifice it at once
  3. Voodoll – make it have 40% of Sadida HP; make enemy hurt self when damaging Voodoll linked to him; make allies not reduce Voodoll's HP when attacking it; reduce the cost to 2AP 1WP at max level.
  4. Tree – make it give Resistance = 2* Sadida level; make it heal by 15*MP consumed.
  5. Explodoll – make it deal 2x more dmg/heal then it does currently
  6. Doll Link – make the link with all the dolls, not just voodoll; Sadida should receive less damage, the more dolls it have summoned.
  7. Knowledge of dolls – make it improve doll's stats (HP, cmc% or maybe resist, Lock). This passive could also make dolls get bonus of 100% of Sadida Lock (they will keep their current Lock values so that Blocker will be still best to lock enemy. This bonus lock will only improve it based on Sadida lock).
  8. Lone Sadida – make it keep stacking with dolls summoned
  9. Nettle – change it: remove the stabilization from this effect; make it give critical hit to dolls instead of dmg%. Make it give +4MP to dolls when maxed.
  10. Casting critical hit on seed – this situation should summon the nettled doll
  11. The greedy doll – make it deal more dmg or make it hit twice (make it have 6AP)
  12. Madoll/Lethargic – increase the chance for this doll to remove MP/AP; make the removed AP/MP be redirected as +AP/+MP to Sadida.
  13. Blocker – make it reduce Hypermovement and Hyperaction
  14. Make all dolls controlable by default
  15. Optionally: give more spells to all dolls
  16. Increase the damage of the Rust spell (make it deal -57 HP at level 100)
  17. Increase the Brambly Armor levels gained from each spell (the Bramble spell should give +37 Lvl of Brambly Armor at level 100)
  18. Remove Armor-To-Be and make Sadida apply Brambly Armor
  19. Make Brambly Armor last longer; the remaining levels of Brambly Armor should not dissapear from the target. Brambly Armor should be only removable with damage
  20. Make Manifold Bramble add Brambly Armor to all allies within range (make it not hurt allies).
  21. Revamp Vaporize; make it add AP to dolls (also make the targeted doll not block LoS for allies)
  22. Make it possible to cast Drain with 1~4 range instead of 2~4 range
  23. Make Rust give CMC% to Sadida instead of giving water dmg% to targeted dolls
  24. If voodoll or target linked to voodoll won't be targeted directly with Sadida's Tear, then make the target of Voodoll get the same base value of heal/damage as the target of the Sadida's Tear spell.
  25. The target linked to Voodoll should mimic the movement of the Voodoll; the Voodoll should be controled by default just like other dolls
  26. Single-target spells used by Sadida on seed should refund all of the AP/MP used to summon doll (except the cost of seed); summoning doll cost should be equal to summoning seed.
  27. The ultrapowerful should have 100% of Sadida air mastery, but it should deal damage reduced by 50% (final). The poison effect would then be based on Sadida's 100% air mastery even if dolls has the spells.
  28. Fire doll should have 100% of Sadida air, water and earth masteries. It should also have fire mastery = chromatic (fire mastery should be the same as highest mastery of Sadida).
  29. K'mir spell should not dissapear when Caster (Sadida or doll) end the turn in wich it have casted K'mir; instead it should last until the end of caster following turn. Note: K'mir stabilizes but targets that were already stabilized cannot be linked with K'mir spell.
  30. Rust should have 0~4 range and it should not hurt the Sadida, just like it doesn't hurt dolls. It should still hurt other allies though.
  31. Mudoll should summon Inflatable doll from seed
  32. Wild Grass should summon Madoll from seed
  33. Bramble cast on empty cells should create Bed of Spikes (Cross of 1)
  34. Bramble cast on enemy should apply Incurable +2 Lvl in addition to current damage
  35. Wild Grass should pull everybody within 3 cells in line to the targeted doll or targeted ally; it should not add Bramby Armors anymore.
  36. Manifold Bramble should make Blocker dolls from seeds
  37. Earthquake spell should have the casting range 0 instead of 1; It should trigger Earthquake with the center on random target (the random target include allies, enemies, Sadida itself, dolls, seeds, other summons and things like larva cocoons or Cra beacons, xelor's dial, pandawa's barrel – basically anything that can be attacked).
  38. Poisoned Wind should hurt enemy when they loose AP or MP (example: from madoll or lethargic) to make synergy with these dolls effects. It should deal more dmg when enemy use/loose MP then when it use/loose AP (At level 100 effect it should deal dmg =-12 HP per AP used/removed and -18 HP per MP used/removed or when dragged and pushed).
  39. Make dolls have 100% of Sadida's Resistance just like they have 100% of Sadida masteries.
  40. Make the Greedy doll with 30% of Sadida HP and Blocker with 40% of Sadida HP. Note: Doll's HP is not increased with PvP HP. The 30% of Sadida HP for Greedy is needed for any pve content above level 60. It is also the needed number of the HP for the Greedy doll for pvp considering it does not get increased with pvp HP of Sadida.



This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - November 30, 2013, 01:55:28.
Reason for edit : edited Knowledge of Dolls
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2012-01-19
posté November 30, 2013, 04:24:34 | #2
1. Nice suggesting on the 2nd change.
6. Dunno why you keep insisting that dolls need to lose damage each time we are hit. We are already struggling to keep them alive. Redirecting damage to only your Voodoll makes a lot more sense. This passive should however give something extra since we only benefit from every 2nd level of Doll Link.
8. Yes, but I don't think that it should stack as much.
14. No! This will be horrible for groups since Sadidas can lag too.
15. Yes, dolls need a way to stay out of LOS if possible. It would be nice if we could take control of them and "deploy" them somewhere so they could become ranged plants instead (damage may vary). But we should definitely have some form of AI pick at the first turn of the doll (like if UP dolls should go close-combat or hit-and-run).
29. Bad! You can't spec tank as Sadida then since they drag first opponent to the next and lock both. K'Mir should rather give a lock bonus for 1 turn so tank Sadidas can compete with others.
37. Better yet, replace this spell with something useful. Maybe something that benefits from all the MP drains that the earth branch has. Seriously, we have 4 ways of draining MP for no reason. Earthquake is a joke.

I don't really have any opinion about the rest. Our control spell (Vaporize) should have no LOS when targeting dolls, because dolls tend to go behind enemies.


This post has been edited by GreenEmerald - November 30, 2013, 06:53:08.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté November 30, 2013, 18:37:46 | #3
@GreenEmerald

1. - The change to make this spell turn doll to seed won't be effective if it would still cost WP as you will be loosing WP that way permanently.
6 - i don't insist that dolls need to loose damage each time we are hit. I haven't said such thing ever, anywhere. I though you meant they would loose HP each time we are hit, but even that is not what i insist to get. I insist for Sadida to receive less damage per doll summoned. It might be damage received reduced by x% per doll. It does not need to hurt the dolls, while it might keep its effect and hurt target of voodoll. It could also make Sadida "link" as +resistance to sadida per doll - that would also fulfill what i am requesting: to receive less dmg the more the dolls we summon.
8 - Why not? Other classes can high damage bonus from the very first or second turn. Sadida will only get the same but will have to wait for 5 turns to get it maxed. The whole synchronisation of Lone Sadida and using dolls should be that dolls help Sadida to survive enough turns for Lone Sadida passive to be maxed.
14 - With multimen persent if the person with 2 multimen lag out then you will also have to wait god knows how long every turn. Though i could accept the spell that would have unlimited range to target dolls in order to control them (and no LoS) or something easier to program: a spell that cast on self would allow Sadida to control all dolls. Then again if Sadida who will control all dolls will lag out (be it by default or manually ) - you won't fix the issue. They should rather fix connection issues or give the team the ability to kick the person who is lagging in the middle of the fight. The system issues should not decide about dolls controling ability.
15 - i dont know why you insist to make dolls with AI, that never works well when you most need it to work properly.
29 - What are you talking about? This is going to be extremly useful for tank Sadida - as the enemy won't be able to escape from Sadida lock zone, just like in case of Iop's Locking Pro ability. But unlike iop's ability, the target would be allowed to still move and change its own position by walking. It would have effect only every second turn as if it would end at the Sadida's following turn, then Sadida won't be able to link self to the same target on second turn as that target would be still "Stabilized" by previous K'mir. It would allow Sadida to link self with K'mir to Drhellzerker ally or Sram or Rogue with Fussiliade and follow their every step - something to keep you close to them to support them. This is how it used to work before revamp, though the difference is that it used to last until start of Sadida following turn (wich allowed Sadida to link self with K'mir to the same target every single turn). Ankama changes it but they changed it wrong way as instead of making it last longer they made it last shorter, to the point that the stabilization provided by this spell has no effect as stabilization can be only utilized if it works during enemy turn too. The ability to make enemy move back to where it was while moving Sadida also back to the previous cell would theoretically change nothing. However with the use of dolls (and considering the dolls have their movement after Sadida and before the enemy) the dolls might block the way for enemy to get back where it was. It would be situational but very handy. It would also make enemy suffer more damage from Poisoned Wind if it would decide to move back to previous position. The K'mir spell as it is now is pretty much useless and does not even work well with Sadida that have no protection from summoned dolls to receive less dmg while tanking.
37 - I don't want new spell. I loved Earthquake in beta. The only problem i ever had with this spell was when i was hitting empty cells only. Current targeting is even worse then it was before revamp. The spell is not bad itself, the targeting is badly designed. But i do love the concept of summoning earthquake at random targets. The powerful but unpredictable force of nature.

As for controling dolls - i hate the fact that Vaporize, wich is water spell, apply it, as it make us waste spell exp on this spell each time we will be using it during pve. Thats just ruin the concept of the game to use the spells we want to level up. I don't want to level up Vaporize, but i still do that for the sake to control the doll in pve. Thats just bad design - and so i would rather have the dolls controled by me by default. Apart from the issue with connection everything else is beneficial from having dolls controled by myself.

There could be alternative solution, but harder to program: make Sadida able to choose to control or not the doll during doll's first 5 seconds of timer. If during those 5 seconds Sadida won;t move the doll. Then the doll's AI will take place. Or they could maybe give us the ability to right click the doll just like we do with multimens and that would allow us to control the doll during that turn. I would love that, but i have no idea how they would implement this.


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2012-01-19
posté November 30, 2013, 20:34:32 | #4
Well, K*mir works well with Gust when you want to tank. If target is 1 MP away from you, then Gust him next to you and grab him with K'Mir. Then run to other targets and try to use the last gust to lock 3 targets together, and finally Tree. It makes you a stabilized tank with high res.

Sadidas get no hp and lock through passives to spec tank builds, but it is still viable with the right gear since we have Tree. A 1 turn K'Mir will ruin this build since the target can pull you away from others. You'll need to cast tree every turn until you run out, and then you can't use K'Mir anymore.

Also, having a follow effect is super unfair vs some classes in pvp. Srams cant backstab you, Cras and air Sacriers cant attack you etc.
And mobs will drag you through penalty tiles in pve. We don't need it to last longer than it currently does. The only class which I can think of with offensive stabilization is Pandas Ether, which costs WP and doesnt hurt the opponent.

Nobody invests heavily in K'Mir or Earthquake builds. They might as well stay level 1 forever, since we only level them to boost our damage/resistance. It's wasted potential along with our shitty passives. K'Mir with increased lock will be crucial for tank builds, and Earthquake should be a targetable spell which is buffed by how much MP is drained from opponent to support all our MP drains.

I have level 58 earthquake to support my build, and I only use it to finish opponents when they are close to an edge. This way I'll only hurt myself. I would never use it otherwise, and definitely not if I risked hurting allies.


This post has been edited by GreenEmerald - November 30, 2013, 20:50:30.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté November 30, 2013, 21:04:47 | #5

Quote (GreenEmerald @ 30 November 2013 20:34) *
Well, K*mir works well with Gust when you want to tank. If target is 1 MP away from you, then Gust him next to you and grab him with K'Mir. Then run to other targets and try to use the last gust to lock 3 targets together, and finally Tree. It makes you a stabilized tank with high res.

Sadidas get no hp and lock through passives to spec tank builds, but it is still viable with the right gear since we have Tree. A 1 turn K'Mir will ruin this build since the target can pull you away from others. You'll need to cast tree every turn until you run out, and can't use K'Mir anymore.

Also, having a follow effect is super unfair vs some classes in pvp. Srams cant backstab you, Cras and air Sacriers cant attack you etc.
And mobs will drag you through penalty tiles in pve. We don't need it to last longer than it currently does. The only class which I can think of with offensive stabilization is Pandas Ether, which costs WP and doesnt hurt the opponent.

Nobody invests heavily in K'Mir or Earthquake builds. They might as well stay level 1 forever, since we only level them to boost our damage/resistance. It's wasted potential along with our shitty passives. K'Mir with increased lock will be crucial for tank builds, and Earthquake should be a targetable spell which is buffed by how much MP is drained from opponent to support all our MP drains.

As sadida you should think about dolls potential as they can help you in tanking. Luring enemy away and summoning dolls next to them would give you the wanted lock - from dolls support. The K'mir as it is has pointless stabilization, wich was great to use when someone plans to push you or pull you (or push/pull you ally that you try to protect). As i already said K'mir that last whole turn would be better when what we have now, because it will be more supportive. And since enemy suffer dmg from Poisoned Wind when its dragged or move - it will suffer the full dmg of poisoned wind when dragger in its own turn when it will try to get back to where it was - so it will make him suffer for the sake to move Sadida. I don't know about you but i used to enjoy using K'mir on ranged enemies (such as Striches, Black Roses, Cra's) as it made them unable to hit me. Making it work every second turn would make it still useful but not overpowered. Do note that before revamp, the K'mir spell casted from self or from doll was the only thing to stop Cra from teleporting. However Sram could still use Guile to dmg you from behind (dmg was applied from behind even though Sram wasnt teleporting). I also liked the fact that this spell used to allow us to attack enemy from side, though in pvp the enemy could also hit us from side too (but yeah not from behind, wich was already great). The Sadida that follow enemy step in enemy turn would be better tank then you think. the lock is pointless if the class can push you, teleport, jump away or throw you. K'mir was making sure that Sadida will start next turn in melee combat with enemy. And like i said: the dolls placed properly could make it impossible for enemy to run back the same way it came with Sadida. The doll's lock would also be handy to keep enemy locked. The K'mir that we have now is only half effective to what it used to be and what it could have been. And i'd even call it a bug since there was no informantion stating that K'mir state would vanish when Sadida end own turn. Whats the point of stabilization then? It does not prevent target from locking itself. Once again the ability to hold your and your ally position when you are K'mir'ed is priceless. The Ankama has removed this.

The iop's Locking Pro and Sacrier's Cage of Blood work already in simialar way - they allow these classes to start next turn next to target. K'mir used to be like that, though it could have been used every turn to start EVERY turn next to enemy. And that was not balanced. But current version doesn't even allow Sadida to start next turn next to enemy. There's no guarantee if enemy can change your or its own poision with the use of spells (by avoiding dodge/lock mechanics). I hate K'mir the way it is now to the point i am not even leveling it. But i used to level it before, because it was nice to deal dmg while stabilizing me and the enemy and make me and the target follow eachother.

However there could be slight change that Sadida under K'mir spell cannot be locked but enemy under K'mir spell could still be locked during enemy turn - that would give you the ability to still lock enemy with your own lock if you have build made to lock, while also giving K'mir the needed support role of stabilizing self and target and the ability to follow target in target turn. I don't know if you tried K'mir before revamp, but it used to be the most funny spell to use on your allies. I don't mind if i won't be able to link self with K'mir to the same target every turn, but making it impossible to keep the link for at least 1 turn is just stupid.

The Cra can keep damaging you for few turns while you do no damage to the Cra or some little dmg with dolls. Getting ability to keep Cra in close combat at least for 1 turn, every other turn, would make it more fair. The Cra can freely attack you from distance and you can do close to nothing, so it would be fine to let Sadida freely attack Cra from melee, while the Cra can do close to nothing (can still use melee weapon to attack you). Besides if the link last for 1 whole turn and it cannot be repeated due to the stabilization on cra during Sadida's following turn, then it would allow Cra to jump away on that second turn and continue to kite Sadida.

The spell K'mir was fun but it was not balanced before revamp. Now the spell lost half of the fun aspect it had and is not balanced again, but to the other side. It used to be the link that can be repeated every turn, now it is the link that is broken as soon as Sadida start turn... What ankama should do is make it possible to link with the same target every second turn. And the fact that we cannot link self to stabilized target and the fact that K'mir will stabilize after it has been cast only shows that there should be the ability to actually hit the target that is already stabilized by K'mir for the damage of K'mir but with no effect added - thats just logical.

Besides the tactic to move someone away and then cast Tree spell is bad as it will make you get no heal or close to no heal from the Tree, wich sounds like a waste. The Tree doesn't give Lock, so keep in mind it won't make you lock better. The Tree is there to help Sadida to receive less dmg, not to help it be a tank. The ability tha helped Sadida to be a tank was removed... i mean revamped. And it was doll link that was making Sadida take less dmg per each doll.

i just hate what they did to Sadida. I want the fun from the spells to be brought back, while not ruining the current abilities of Sadida.

Also small note about doll link and doll's HP:

When dolls get more HP as i suggest, then they would have enough HP to survive for long enough to be useful. If Sadida won't be hit, then they would benefit fully from their HP, so no loss to their HP that you fear so much. If Sadida will be hit, then they would lost some HP, but if its only 10% of dmg then they should still survive, while it would also give Sadida tje needed bulk to counter the dmg dealers classes with ridiculous high base dmg and ridiculously high masteries.

Obviouly if no change would be made to doll's HP then it would be lame to have the doll link. wich is why people were asking for more HP to dolls (and it was back then when the Greedy had 28% of Sadida max HP!). The increased HP and the resist taken from Sadida is enough to make dolls sturdy enough to make Doll Link make an return to Sadida specialities and work as it used to.

As for earthquake i keep it at level 13, for th eobvious use: to trigger nettle in pvp. I don't use it in pve at all as it would make it gain unwanted levels. However before revamp i used to have it leveled pretty high because i enjoyed using it when enemies were far away out of even Cra's range to be hit. Occasionally i was hitting them and that gave me the joy. It was also fun to block bridge with Totem and spam earthquake togather with your ally Sadida - we could make a bet who will strike enemy more times. In case we hurt eachother - we were just healing up. It was fun and i enjoyed it. It was also fun to use it in Rushu Rush during beta days. And aoe not blocked with LoS wich can hit at any distance - with the only cons to be random and dealing dmg to everybody, including allies. That was the earthquake i enjoyed the most. I had no real problems with it hitting allies nor having it as random spell - if it could decide about victory - i was ready to risk. The only problem i had with this spell was when and still is: when i hit empty cells only. That's such a waste... to not even hit myself... (i was happy to hit myself as it was nettling dolls). It was also less abusive for nettling dolls then the current version of Earthquake. I'd want to bring back the way it was before with some changes to target only zones in wich there are allies/enemies or summons/mechanical tools. I could even consider maxing this spell if it would work this way.

I'd hate for Earthquake to be targetable spell like Manifold Bramble. We already have one spell with that aoe side wich is also earth element. No point having second one that works the same. The fact that we have 2 earth abilities that have such aoe zones is only because the fact that one of them is attacking random area. Removing random aspect of Earthquake could as well make this spell to be removed completly and replaced with something else - but that i would hate to see, knowing how useful this spell used to be in beta (arenas especially).


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2011-07-31
posté November 30, 2013, 23:44:25 | #6
Sorry Kiku, but I saw this suggestion and I just couldn't read through the rest - are you serious?



Quote
Tree – make it give Resistance = 2* Sadida level; make it heal by 15*MP consumed.

So at lvl 140 (current max level) for 1 WP cost the Sadida should be able to stabilize itself, give itself +280% resist, and heal itself for up 105 (stronger then level 140 Fortifying Word)... I don't even know what to say to that, except good luck getting Ankama to consider your other suggestions with something like that sitting on the list.


This post has been edited by Zelauri - November 30, 2013, 23:45:58.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 01, 2013, 00:44:47 | #7

Quote (Zelauri @ 30 November 2013 23:44) *
Sorry Kiku, but I saw this suggestion and I just couldn't read through the rest - are you serious?



Quote
Tree – make it give Resistance = 2* Sadida level; make it heal by 15*MP consumed.

So at lvl 140 (current max level) for 1 WP cost the Sadida should be able to stabilize itself, give itself +280% resist, and heal itself for up 105 (stronger then level 140 Fortifying Word)... I don't even know what to say to that, except good luck getting Ankama to consider your other suggestions with something like that sitting on the list.
The Tree used to make Sadida invulnerable. Adding high resist is close to inculnerability but still make Sadida suffer dmg. In my opinion the Tree should be worth that WP investment and make most of the enemies deal base dmg of the spell during that turn to Sadida. You still have to consider that enemy team can reduce Sadida resist by 120% (enemy air Sadida) + Dizzy can also remove 100% of Resist. And you should make a note that there are Rogues with 600% earth dmg% wich can also reduce resist by 100% from Piercing Shots. If you consider that then you will realise that 2*Lvl of the Sadida as resistance bonus for 1 turn is pretty much needed in order to make this spell worth anything.

As for the Heal it is heal from MP. 1MP heal = 15 HP base. Its average base value for the 1MP spell. The actuall cost of the Tree is ALL OF SADIDA MP AND 1WP. Curent version is pathetically weak. The fact that it heal more then Fortifying its because it consume MP to heal and MP have higher base value then AP in terms of dmg or heals. It is balanced value. In fact there are spells that deal 12 dmg per AP, wich means the MP spell would then need to deal 18 base dmg (or heal) in order to keep it balanced. I kept it lower number then that because its more average. You also have to consider that Sadida would need to not move in order to get as much heal as possible form this spell. It would mean you could simply run away from Sadida or Trap it with glyphs as feca or attack other enemy in group pvp, that Sadida would need to move to in order to support it - wich would then make Sadida get close to no heal at all, just resist bonus.

Funny how people see had no problem with Tree giving invulnerability to Sadida while for you it seems too much to make it get resist high enough to make most of the enemies inflict base damage on Sadida - so it will actually suffer.

This is obviously talking about 140 lvl content.

As for 100 lvl it will be 200% resist bonus - most of your enemis will have 300%~500% dmg bonus already at this level. How's that tiny 50% resist we get now gonna help at all? Tree as it is now is a waste of WP and MP. The values need increase to fit other classes and monsters of the equal content level capabilitites.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2011-07-31
posté December 01, 2013, 00:54:02 | #8
I'm sorry Kiku but no class should be able to have 6 turns of invulnerability in any situation, so arguing that Tree is useless as it is now because it doesn't make you invulnerable makes no sense. The old Tree not only had an AP cost but it sacrificed a percentage of your HP to gain that invulnerability, and you didn't use to be able to get WP back from Dolls dying - Tree is perfect as it is now; a tool to heal yourself, make yourself stabilized, and bulk you up a little bit when you can spare the WP. Don't you think that combined with the Earth tree a Sadida with that much +resist, the best WP-heal ratio spell in the game, and the best form of HP shielding in the game would make every single other tanking class completely irrelevant?

Don't bother arguing this point any further with me, because if you can't see how completely broken and imbalanced this suggestion is then I can't listen to anything else you have to say with any seriousness.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 01, 2013, 01:20:38 | #9

Quote (Zelauri @ 01 December 2013 00:54) *
I'm sorry Kiku but no class should be able to have 6 turns of invulnerability in any situation, so arguing that Tree is useless as it is now because it doesn't make you invulnerable makes no sense. The old Tree not only had an AP cost but it sacrificed a percentage of your HP to gain that invulnerability, and you didn't use to be able to get WP back from Dolls dying - Tree is perfect as it is now; a tool to heal yourself, make yourself stabilized, and bulk you up a little bit when you can spare the WP. Don't you think that combined with the Earth tree a Sadida with that much +resist, the best WP-heal ratio spell in the game, and the best form of HP shielding in the game would make every single other tanking class completely irrelevant?

Don't bother arguing this point any further with me, because if you can't see how completely broken and imbalanced this suggestion is then I can't listen to anything else you have to say with any seriousness.
Enripsa can have 6 turns of invulnerability. Sadida canot have it anymore. Even if the resist bonus from Tree would make you get resist equal to the dmg% (wich i doubt will happen when enemy can have 600% dmg bonus) of your opponent you will still suffer dmg.

If enemy can deal 200 base dmg in turn and it have 600% dmg bonus then it will deal a base dmg +6* the base dmg so 1400 dmg in turn. Meanwhile if Sadida will get 50% resist from Tree it would make the difference of 100 dmg less taken, wich won't matter if the damage received would be so huge already. So yeah its useless as it is now. I can't understand how you can say the Tree is ok as it is now. Are you Grou undercover or what?

The base heal of 5.5 for 1MP used (Lvl 100) is a joke to when you compare it with other spells that cost MP. Even cheapest 1AP spell of Eniripsa provide better heal (almost 2x better). Your arguement is invalid.

Stop acting as "that would be too good" or we will never be good enough. I am sick of people who stop progress of the Sadida by limiting it every time a new change is suggested.

As for Tree invulnerability you shoudl update your information because before the Tree was removing part of Sadida HP to make it invulnerable it was healing 20% of max HP of Sadida AND giving invulnerability. The Sadida back then also had +1WP bonus from initiative turn instead of +50% dmg to summons. Though the Tree had 2WP cost, wich i wouldn't mind to get if only that would make this spell worht using. Do note i haven't mentioned any cost for the Tree, yet you started to assume its bad. I don't care if they add AP cost to it either. I should make Sadida invulnerable or close to invulnerable. The resist bonus instead of invulnerability only makes it more balanced. And you keep forgeting that classes can get permanent dmg bonus, while this Tree form only last for 1 turn. A Sadida cannot survive 2 turns in high lvl pvp vs water masqueraider, Xelor, Ecaflip and many others. So no matter what you say the bonus of 2*Sadida level to resistance is necessary.

p.s. I am not here to argue with you, nor should i care if you will keep reading/posting/taking things seriously as i don't even know you.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - December 01, 2013, 01:22:43.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-04-14
posté December 01, 2013, 01:56:04 | #10

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 30 November 2013 01:43) *
Be it rebalanced or revamped, call it as you wish, but here are the changes that would make Sadida the way it should have been revamped with the last revamp:

  1. Doll – remove the WP cost from this spell; make it turn doll to seed
  2. Dolly Sacrifice – make it not turn doll to seed but sacrifice it at once
  3. Voodoll – make it have 40% of Sadida HP; make enemy hurt self when damaging Voodoll linked to him; make allies not reduce Voodoll's HP when attacking it; reduce the cost to 2AP 1WP at max level.
  4. Tree – make it give Resistance = 2* Sadida level; make it heal by 15*MP consumed.
  5. Explodoll – make it deal 2x more dmg/heal then it does currently
  6. Doll Link – make the link with all the dolls, not just voodoll; Sadida should receive less damage, the more dolls it have summoned.
  7. Knowledge of dolls – make it improve doll's stats (HP, cmc% or maybe resist, Lock). This passive could also make dolls get bonus of 100% of Sadida Lock (they will keep their current Lock values so that Blocker will be still best to lock enemy. This bonus lock will only improve it based on Sadida lock).
  8. Lone Sadida – make it keep stacking with dolls summoned
  9. Nettle – change it: remove the stabilization from this effect; make it give critical hit to dolls instead of dmg%. Make it give +4MP to dolls when maxed.
  10. Casting critical hit on seed – this situation should summon the nettled doll
  11. The greedy doll – make it deal more dmg or make it hit twice (make it have 6AP)
  12. Madoll/Lethargic – increase the chance for this doll to remove MP/AP; make the removed AP/MP be redirected as +AP/+MP to Sadida.
  13. Blocker – make it reduce Hypermovement and Hyperaction
  14. Make all dolls controlable by default
  15. Optionally: give more spells to all dolls
  16. Increase the damage of the Rust spell (make it deal -57 HP at level 100)
  17. Increase the Brambly Armor levels gained from each spell (the Bramble spell should give +37 Lvl of Brambly Armor at level 100)
  18. Remove Armor-To-Be and make Sadida apply Brambly Armor
  19. Make Brambly Armor last longer; the remaining levels of Brambly Armor should not dissapear from the target. Brambly Armor should be only removable with damage
  20. Make Manifold Bramble add Brambly Armor to all allies within range (make it not hurt allies).
  21. Revamp Vaporize; make it add AP to dolls (also make the targeted doll not block LoS for allies)
  22. Make it possible to cast Drain with 1~4 range instead of 2~4 range
  23. Make Rust give CMC% to Sadida instead of giving water dmg% to targeted dolls
  24. If voodoll or target linked to voodoll won't be targeted directly with Sadida's Tear, then make the target of Voodoll get the same base value of heal/damage as the target of the Sadida's Tear spell.
  25. The target linked to Voodoll should mimic the movement of the Voodoll; the Voodoll should be controled by default just like other dolls
  26. Single-target spells used by Sadida on seed should refund all of the AP/MP used to summon doll (except the cost of seed); summoning doll cost should be equal to summoning seed.
  27. The ultrapowerful should have 100% of Sadida air mastery, but it should deal damage reduced by 50% (final). The poison effect would then be based on Sadida's 100% air mastery even if dolls has the spells.
  28. Fire doll should have 100% of Sadida air, water and earth masteries. It should also have fire mastery = chromatic (fire mastery should be the same as highest mastery of Sadida).
  29. K'mir spell should not dissapear when Caster (Sadida or doll) end the turn in wich it have casted K'mir; instead it should last until the end of caster following turn. Note: K'mir stabilizes but targets that were already stabilized cannot be linked with K'mir spell.
  30. Rust should have 0~4 range and it should not hurt the Sadida, just like it doesn't hurt dolls. It should still hurt other allies though.
  31. Mudoll should summon Inflatable doll from seed
  32. Wild Grass should summon Madoll from seed
  33. Bramble cast on empty cells should create Bed of Spikes (Cross of 1)
  34. Bramble cast on enemy should apply Incurable +2 Lvl in addition to current damage
  35. Wild Grass should pull everybody within 3 cells in line to the targeted doll or targeted ally; it should not add Bramby Armors anymore.
  36. Manifold Bramble should make Blocker dolls from seeds
  37. Earthquake spell should have the casting range 0 instead of 1; It should trigger Earthquake with the center on random target (the random target include allies, enemies, Sadida itself, dolls, seeds, other summons and things like larva cocoons or Cra beacons, xelor's dial, pandawa's barrel – basically anything that can be attacked).
  38. Poisoned Wind should hurt enemy when they loose AP or MP (example: from madoll or lethargic) to make synergy with these dolls effects. It should deal more dmg when enemy use/loose MP then when it use/loose AP (At level 100 effect it should deal dmg =-12 HP per AP used/removed and -18 HP per MP used/removed or when dragged and pushed).
  39. Make dolls have 100% of Sadida's Resistance just like they have 100% of Sadida masteries.
  40. Make the Greedy doll with 30% of Sadida HP and Blocker with 40% of Sadida HP. Note: Doll's HP is not increased with PvP HP. The 30% of Sadida HP for Greedy is needed for any pve content above level 60. It is also the needed number of the HP for the Greedy doll for pvp considering it does not get increased with pvp HP of Sadida.
Although there are some reasonable ideas in there, most of them are rediculous. Do you how how you've put reasonable suggestions into a bad light by proposing them along side such insane changes such as Tree give 400% res @ level 200 and healing more than an enis most powerful heal (which costs MORE to cast).

Also I've seen tree use become highly effective in team combat and when soloing (for tank builds especially), you just aren't using it right.

I couldn't bring myself to read through all 40 suggestions, the crazy put me off, didn't want to waste my time.


This post has been edited by JustD87 - December 01, 2013, 02:11:43.
Reason for edit : edited to make more sense
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 01, 2013, 21:15:36 | #11
Feca can already get more HP then Sadida can and Sadida get this resist bonus for 1 freaking turn only. At 200 lvl people will get 1000% dmg if the equipement keep progressing the way it is. By that time the 400% resist bonus would make you still get a dmg boosted by 200% or 300%. You should take every aspect of the game into account. Nobody cares about easy pve. If monster around lvl 100 content have 200% dmg bonus then it won't matter for it if i would have 250% resist or 400% resist. The change would only help Sadida during UB runs or in pvp (mostly 1 vs 1 pvp as in group pvp enemies can ignore you when you turn to Tree).

Once again the Cost of all of Sadida MP is high cost. It already has LOWER base heal value then Fortifying word.

The Fortyfying word has 12 base heal per AP, while the Tree has 10 heal per AP. Do note that 1MP = 1.5AP, so the 15 heal for 1 MP is like 10 heal for 1AP.

The only thing that makes it look strong is the fact that it consume all of the MP. The cost is high, you just don't see it and pretent to have it for 1WP cost, wich is wrong.


I could propably accept the 1*Lvl of Sadida resist, but then again it won't help Sadida much in pvp, and won't change anything in pve.

Assuming that i am not using it right is like saying you don't know how to start playing Wakfu. I am dedicated Sadida player, and i know well every spell of it and all tricks it can make. The fact that Tree is handy for 50% resist bonus and some heal when you play in team is obvious, but the fact that its underpowered for the cost used for it is another thing that you blindly ignore for the fact that its still some bonus afterall. Do you even pvp? I mean high lvl pvp? 1 vs 1? Or have you been to UB fight? Were you using Tree that was giving you invulnerability before it got revamped? Or are you just yet another player who "like it the way it is" without comparing its cost to damage or heal provided and doesn't compare it with other classes and have no idea about the possible potential that the Sadida class have? I don't even.... want to talk wich such personality. You are just ruining this topic and you are doing that with an alt account (or if you are not then you don't even have high lvl Sadida to share proper feedback - the content under 80 lvl is nothing and its like a walk in the park even with the crappy numbers on Sadida specialities).

You don't see the problem here, so how about, not saying that improvement is bad? You could make use of the improvement for this spell. Give some other idea by yourself if you feel the one here is bad. The last thing that this game need is people who just keep dissagreeing when they read about possible improvements of the class. Will it kill you if you will get proper heal per MP used and noticable resist bonus that would actually be worth the WP used?

I can already tell that you never had pvp vs Pandawa as Sadida, nor you had the fight with other Sadida (air) or Pandawa in team pvp. And i belive you also have no experience vs Earth rogue who has 600% dmg bonus (earth) or Ecaflip with 12 AP (earth) or Xelor (any element) or Masqueraider with 500% dmg bonus and Double (any element) or Sram (any element but fire hurt the most) or just any well build dmg dealer who can KO you within 2 or 3 turns no matter what you do. Go play the game for 1 more year and maybe then we can talk as it seems pointless trying to convince you.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - December 01, 2013, 21:16:36.
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté December 02, 2013, 01:56:29 | #12
How about i make a shorter revised list that ankama might actually listen to:

1 Make it so lone saddida doesn't discourage doll use, it would be preferablle if worked the same way only still worked with dolls, as it is needed to break the resists of most bosses.

2 Make doll costs more reasonable, a seed cost of one ap could be enough, just so long as it doesnt cost 6 or more for a single doll

3 Increase doll survivability, either let the average one have about 500 hp on a level 100 ish character or give them charges (so long as they dont decay, like barrel).

4 Explodoll needs to be stronger, at the moment it is negligible. Players should be encouraged to aviod its damage by moving away before triggering it.

5 Ensure doll link gives saddida a way to be a viable tank.

6 Remove the random aspect of earthquake, i recommend that it is perhaps an overlapping aoe around dolls and saddida like shebang, so that earth dolls can improve earth saddida damage, while still being dangerous (if you are in a doll aoe you would be hurt).

7 consider that earth has 3 single target mid ranged spells that do very similar things, perhaps change one or two of them to be more unique. Perhaps fertiliser has a 3 cell line aoe, Perhaps bramble has a rebound effect. Also without damage dolls, earths spells should be able to compete with other classes in base damage.

8 Consider that two of the poisons of air did not increase in damage cap when the spell level cap was raised

9 Consider that lumino is going to be a much better healer than a water saddida (based on beta server)


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - December 02, 2013, 02:00:39.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 02, 2013, 20:07:47 | #13

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 02 December 2013 01:56) *
3 Increase doll survivability, either let the average one have about 500 hp on a level 100 ish character or give them charges (so long as they dont decay, like barrel).
The barrel doesn't decay. It only loose charge when Pandawa use it for spells (water or earth) or when it is hit.


Quote (HakazabaJub @ 02 December 2013 01:56) *
9 Consider that lumino is going to be a much better healer than a water saddida (based on beta server)
Say, what? D:
Water Sadida is currently the weakest branch of Sadida that can't do anything outside of low base dmg heal to self or summoning greedy dolls. The dmg of Rust is pathetic and the bonus dmg to dolls is not high anyway while its difficulty to target 4 dolls and the enemy in same time in order to reach "full potential of this spell"! Sadida's tear is the only usable spell but is limited to cast in line and need Voodoll to be effective (read: 1 less doll to deal dmg).

I am very dissapointing that water sadida is only good at healing with inflatables. I did many pvp'es as Water/AIr and Water/Earth Sadida and aside from summoning dolls i was not even using my water spells at all, because they are that weak comparing to air or earth spells. Using bramble shield on myself is better then healing myself. Making enemy suffer dmg from poisons lik eintoxicated and also tetatoxin is uncouraging me to use air spells over water to attack the enemy. I am more and more switching my water dolls into air ones as much as i can. Water Sadida need more love. And reading that the only thing that it is currently good at (healing), will be replaced by a multimen is just killing me... I got... once again... dissapointed.... just when i was thinking to sub again.... i decided to postpone my sub.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - December 02, 2013, 20:43:26.
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté December 02, 2013, 21:18:22 | #14

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 02 December 2013 20:07) *
The barrel doesn't decay. It only loose charge when Pandawa use it for spells (water or earth) or when it is hit.
Yes, i was trying to say that it should be like that.

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 02 December 2013 20:07) *
Say, what? D:
Water Sadida is currently the weakest branch of Sadida that can't do anything outside of low base dmg heal to self or summoning greedy dolls. The dmg of Rust is pathetic and the bonus dmg to dolls is not high anyway while its difficulty to target 4 dolls and the enemy in same time in order to reach "full potential of this spell"! Sadida's tear is the only usable spell but is limited to cast in line and need Voodoll to be effective (read: 1 less doll to deal dmg).
I would actually say water is the strongest, yes rust sucks but saddidas tear is stronger than xelor punishment.


Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 02 December 2013 20:07) *
I am very dissapointing that water sadida is only good at healing with inflatables. I did many pvp'es as Water/AIr and Water/Earth Sadida and aside from summoning dolls i was not even using my water spells at all, because they are that weak comparing to air or earth spells. Using bramble shield on myself is better then healing myself. Making enemy suffer dmg from poisons lik eintoxicated and also tetatoxin is uncouraging me to use air spells over water to attack the enemy. I am more and more switching my water dolls into air ones as much as i can. Water Sadida need more love. And reading that the only thing that it is currently good at (healing), will be replaced by a multimen is just killing me... I got... once again... dissapointed.... just when i was thinking to sub again.... i decided to postpone my sub.
Just so you know the actual numbers that im talking about, lumnino has a 3 ap healing spell that has 34 base heal at lvl 100 and heals in a cross, and a revive spell for 3 ap.

Also bramble shield is pretty bad compared to our healing.

Sorry, the cross aoe was lowered to 30 at 100, still it has a 2 use per turn 1 ap a mp heal for 21 to supplement it and a 4 ap heal for 45


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 03, 2013, 21:13:18 | #15

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 02 December 2013 01:56) *
6 Remove the random aspect of earthquake, i recommend that it is perhaps an overlapping aoe around dolls and saddida like shebang, so that earth dolls can improve earth saddida damage, while still being dangerous (if you are in a doll aoe you would be hurt).

I have few questions about this.

1. How would it work if you would not have summoned dolls?
2. Would it hurt Sadida?
If yes, then it would turn to a Sacrier-like spell that make Sadida always hurt self when using it.
If not, then it will turn to basic aoe around self, wich would have high cost for very little damage.
3. Would it hurt dolls?
If not then it would lead problem to being easily spammed with several dolls near enemy.
If yes, then it will lead to problem with Explodoll being easily triggered afterall dolls get hit and killed near enemy.
4. And yes: what exactly damage this spell should have, knowing it will multiply by the number of dolls?
5. What would be the cost of this spell? I like the ability to use 1 spare MP to cast it, especially that i need to position myself properly in pvp.
6. Consider the change that would allow Sadida to summon as many dolls as it have control (instead of limiting dolls to max 6 due to WP cost). Wouldn't that spell had potentially overpowered damage?

I was looking at all pros and cons that Grou was suggesting for such mechanic with Earthquake and my final conclusion is that i don't like it.

The Earthquake without risk to hurt myself is not going to be the same. And if i stay away from dolls the Earthquake will never hurt me or else it will always hurt me. Either way is bad. The randomness of epicenter of earthquake is what makes this spell awsome. The change to aoe only around dolls and sadida will make it a spell never-to-be used in team, where dolls are usually near allies: be it close to melee characters or near someone who need heal. The cost higher then 1MP will make me never use it as in pvp i need position myself properly and i don't stand in place. I'd rather make it possible for Sadida to shield itself (and allies) with brambly armor so that in case Earthquake hit them they wouldn't loose HP. The fact that it will always aoe around myself will make me in need to stay away from my allies, wich is opposite to what i should do as support class. It will be simply not handy to stay away and try to control/summon dolls in proper cells and push things properly.

To sum up i'd rather have the Earthquake spell just less random, more predictable, but not completly guaranteed to hit certain area. What i mean is that surrounding enemy with dolls would increase the propability that Earthquake will actually hit there. If enemies will stay close while my allies will be spread out it will be more likely for me to hit those several enemies and in case i fail i would just hurt 1 ally. I also would like to be able to strike enemies far away from me with Earthquake even if i don't have dolls summoned or simply when dolls are not close to that enemy (wich is common at start of my turn, because enemy simply keep moving).

The suggestion of Grou was to make it cost 3MP and has base of 15 dmg at level 100 and to work just as you suggested here: with multiple center zones from dolls and Sadida. People didn't liked it wich is why it didn't got implemented. Instead we got the Earthquake that "potentially won't hurt allies". The thing is that in order to not hurt allies Sadida would need to be in front line - tanking and to do that it need more protection then the Brambly Armor can currently give + it will waste MP when it will move forward. Its not handy in use at all, especially that your allies are usually in front of you or around you, as you support them. Making Earthquake with increased chance to hit targets that are close to each other would give it a mechanic that will still give you some better control of this spell: if you allies won't be next to each other and other enemis will or if dolls will be next to one of the enemy - the Earthquake will have high propability (or maybe guarantee?) that it will hit with center in one of these targets. Remember the Black Crow aoe? It always land on those who are hugging each other. How about implementing something similar to the Earthquake spell?


Quote (HakazabaJub @ 02 December 2013 21:18) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 02 December 2013 20:07) *
Say, what? D:
Water Sadida is currently the weakest branch of Sadida that can't do anything outside of low base dmg heal to self or summoning greedy dolls. The dmg of Rust is pathetic and the bonus dmg to dolls is not high anyway while its difficulty to target 4 dolls and the enemy in same time in order to reach "full potential of this spell"! Sadida's tear is the only usable spell but is limited to cast in line and need Voodoll to be effective (read: 1 less doll to deal dmg).
I would actually say water is the strongest, yes rust sucks but saddidas tear is stronger than xelor punishment.
Its true that Sadida's Tear has high base dmg but ONLY with Voodoll summoned. And Voodoll can be killed by enemy easily without even making them waste much AP nor the WP and Sadida permanently loose WP once the Voodoll is dead. The change to Voodoll is needed, that would help for sure. Still 1 Voodoll out = 1 less Greedy summoned. Meanwhile poison effects has greated damage potential then Sadida's Tear. The ultrapowerful dolls are doing similar if not more dmg then the Greedy dolls + they apply poisons that can act as another "dolls" as they posion is dealing dmg too. The air Sadida is very powerful as it is if it uses dolls. The only cons it have is very high cost to summon dolls. Water Sadida doesn't have such luxury. If you compare greedy dolls + sadida's tear and ultrapowerful dolls + poison effects then you will realise that the air branch is way stronger. What bothers me is that Sudden Chill has pretty nice base dmg while it allow not just dolls but all allies to hit hard, meanwhile Rust increase dmg only to water dolls and only to those targeted ones, wich is not much with the low base dmg of the water dolls and Rust itself deal pathetic damage, wich is not even useful as aoe spell.

The earth is not strong either, but Manifold Bramble is doing decent damage, similar to Pandawa's Milkin It (and with similar zone). However the Wild Grass has high dmg potential when cast on Voodoll - the issue again the voodoll looose HP when Sadida use it, wich is bad design and should be changed. Now i don't think we need 2 spells (Sadida's Tear and Wild Grass) that just deal more dmg to target of Voodoll. Therefore wild grass effect should be different. But back to the potential of each branch - the earth is pretty good at protecting 1 selected ally from harm. It is commonly used in fight vs UBs unlike Sadida with inflatables (not only they are not guaranteed heal, the Sadida need to waste AP contoling them or they might bug out and heal the enemy, but they also might position themself in bad place if Sadida don't control them + they increase heal resistance unlike pure earth Sadida build that doesn't even need to use dolls). Earth is cool at protection (the numbers of bambly armor applied need to be higher though) air is cool at dealing dmg (the cost to summon ultrapowerful need to be lowered though) and water is cool at ... uhg well its not best in anything. Water can just summon cheap dolls, but i'd like to see each doll with the same cost to be summoned wich will just make it no longer the utility of water branch. The greedy dolls are too weak, have just 4base MP and are attacking only at melee distance - they are not even able to attack multiiple times as they used to during beta when they were nettled or buffed by Sadida with Rust. Sadida itself can't support them much. The best thing it can do is cast air spells via them - wich lead to multi element build, but water spells itself are not really useful. The only direct heal Sadida have (mudoll) is very weak and not gonna help you more then Wild Grass's brambly armor.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté December 03, 2013, 22:07:21 | #16

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 03 December 2013 21:13) *

I have few questions about this.

1. How would it work if you would not have summoned dolls?
2. Would it hurt Sadida?
If yes, then it would turn to a Sacrier-like spell that make Sadida always hurt self when using it.
If not, then it will turn to basic aoe around self, wich would have high cost for very little damage.
3. Would it hurt dolls?
If not then it would lead problem to being easily spammed with several dolls near enemy.
If yes, then it will lead to problem with Explodoll being easily triggered afterall dolls get hit and killed near enemy.
4. And yes: what exactly damage this spell should have, knowing it will multiply by the number of dolls?
5. What would be the cost of this spell? I like the ability to use 1 spare MP to cast it, especially that i need to position myself properly in pvp.
6. Consider the change that would allow Sadida to summon as many dolls as it have control (instead of limiting dolls to max 6 due to WP cost). Wouldn't that spell had potentially overpowered damage?

I was looking at all pros and cons that Grou was suggesting for such mechanic with Earthquake and my final conclusion is that i don't like it.

The Earthquake without risk to hurt myself is not going to be the same. And if i stay away from dolls the Earthquake will never hurt me or else it will always hurt me. Either way is bad. The randomness of epicenter of earthquake is what makes this spell awsome. The change to aoe only around dolls and sadida will make it a spell never-to-be used in team, where dolls are usually near allies: be it close to melee characters or near someone who need heal. The cost higher then 1MP will make me never use it as in pvp i need position myself properly and i don't stand in place. I'd rather make it possible for Sadida to shield itself (and allies) with brambly armor so that in case Earthquake hit them they wouldn't loose HP. The fact that it will always aoe around myself will make me in need to stay away from my allies, wich is opposite to what i should do as support class. It will be simply not handy to stay away and try to control/summon dolls in proper cells and push things properly.

To sum up i'd rather have the Earthquake spell just less random, more predictable, but not completly guaranteed to hit certain area. What i mean is that surrounding enemy with dolls would increase the propability that Earthquake will actually hit there. If enemies will stay close while my allies will be spread out it will be more likely for me to hit those several enemies and in case i fail i would just hurt 1 ally. I also would like to be able to strike enemies far away from me with Earthquake even if i don't have dolls summoned or simply when dolls are not close to that enemy (wich is common at start of my turn, because enemy simply keep moving).

The suggestion of Grou was to make it cost 3MP and has base of 15 dmg at level 100 and to work just as you suggested here: with multiple center zones from dolls and Sadida. People didn't liked it wich is why it didn't got implemented. Instead we got the Earthquake that "potentially won't hurt allies". The thing is that in order to not hurt allies Sadida would need to be in front line - tanking and to do that it need more protection then the Brambly Armor can currently give + it will waste MP when it will move forward. Its not handy in use at all, especially that your allies are usually in front of you or around you, as you support them. Making Earthquake with increased chance to hit targets that are close to each other would give it a mechanic that will still give you some better control of this spell: if you allies won't be next to each other and other enemis will or if dolls will be next to one of the enemy - the Earthquake will have high propability (or maybe guarantee?) that it will hit with center in one of these targets. Remember the Black Crow aoe? It always land on those who are hugging each other. How about implementing something similar to the Earthquake spell?
What I'm thinking is a 2mp for 20 damage 2 per turn, since iop has a spell that works in a similar way, only you are paying twice as much as for the possibility of extra damage though aoe overlapping, also the mp cost will mean that you would be unable to kite opponents at the same time, which i think is worth the damage possibilities of this spell.

1) It would make a wrath size aoe around the saddida, the damage would be the same as gutting gust but the cost would be 2mp.

2) Only the aoe from the dolls would have the possibility of hurting the sadida, i think that adding a potetial 40 base damage to earth saddidas through just this would be worth it, it would also be the perfect thing to supplement a tank who is locking multiple monsters and using ap to shield itself.

3) Dolls would be hit by other dolls aoe and the saddidas aoe but not its own, there is a small amount of synergy with explodoll, though i would argue that since a dolls normal attack is stronger than explodoll, killing them is actually a loss of damage. This would only be an issue if dolls have charges i think, what do you think?

4) I'm thinking 20, the aoe effect makes it risky to use when surrounding enemies, as you will use all your mp to do so, so you will likely be in the blast radius as well, it will take a lot of skill to use it effectively without hurting teammates and yourself, but i prefer it over being a random chance of both.

5) 2 mp, i think the loss of that mobility from the higher cost is worth the damage possibility of the spell. (so you wouldn't want to use it when running from an iop, but if they stop chasing you and stupidly get surronded by dolls then Bam!)

6) really i think that if you manage to surround someone with that many dolls without you getting hit too then you deserve that damage output.

Its odd, we talked about this on another topic and you seemed to like it, my goal for the spell is to remove the random aspect entirely and replace it with something that rewards skilled doll positioning I can see why no one liked grous idea, 3 mp is just way too much, 15 is meh.

The issue with the random stuff is that it always nets 0 base damage difference between you and the enemy, 50% chance to damage you and 50% chance to damage me for the same amount makes it not worth using ever, not even eca abilities are that random.

What you seem to be suggesting here still has that issue when in one on one, and im not that happy with the spell being controlled by the ai of the game.

Though it did gave me another couple of ideas, what if it was a wrath-like aoe, and you can target yourself or any doll on the field for where it happens.
Or what if it simply targeted a random enemy?
(id still prefer my main suggestion though, also not that the values are suggestions, feel free to say what you think is reasonable. Heck we could make it 1 mp, 2 use per turn and 15 damage or something?)


Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 03 December 2013 21:13) *

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 02 December 2013 21:18) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 02 December 2013 20:07) *
Say, what? D:
Water Sadida is currently the weakest branch of Sadida that can't do anything outside of low base dmg heal to self or summoning greedy dolls. The dmg of Rust is pathetic and the bonus dmg to dolls is not high anyway while its difficulty to target 4 dolls and the enemy in same time in order to reach "full potential of this spell"! Sadida's tear is the only usable spell but is limited to cast in line and need Voodoll to be effective (read: 1 less doll to deal dmg).
I would actually say water is the strongest, yes rust sucks but saddidas tear is stronger than xelor punishment.
Its true that Sadida's Tear has high base dmg but ONLY with Voodoll summoned. And Voodoll can be killed by enemy easily without even making them waste much AP nor the WP and Sadida permanently loose WP once the Voodoll is dead. The change to Voodoll is needed, that would help for sure. Still 1 Voodoll out = 1 less Greedy summoned. Meanwhile poison effects has greated damage potential then Sadida's Tear. The ultrapowerful dolls are doing similar if not more dmg then the Greedy dolls + they apply poisons that can act as another "dolls" as they posion is dealing dmg too. The air Sadida is very powerful as it is if it uses dolls. The only cons it have is very high cost to summon dolls. Water Sadida doesn't have such luxury. If you compare greedy dolls + sadida's tear and ultrapowerful dolls + poison effects then you will realise that the air branch is way stronger. What bothers me is that Sudden Chill has pretty nice base dmg while it allow not just dolls but all allies to hit hard, meanwhile Rust increase dmg only to water dolls and only to those targeted ones, wich is not much with the low base dmg of the water dolls and Rust itself deal pathetic damage, wich is not even useful as aoe spell.

The earth is not strong either, but Manifold Bramble is doing decent damage, similar to Pandawa's Milkin It (and with similar zone). However the Wild Grass has high dmg potential when cast on Voodoll - the issue again the voodoll looose HP when Sadida use it, wich is bad design and should be changed. Now i don't think we need 2 spells (Sadida's Tear and Wild Grass) that just deal more dmg to target of Voodoll. Therefore wild grass effect should be different. But back to the potential of each branch - the earth is pretty good at protecting 1 selected ally from harm. It is commonly used in fight vs UBs unlike Sadida with inflatables (not only they are not guaranteed heal, the Sadida need to waste AP contoling them or they might bug out and heal the enemy, but they also might position themself in bad place if Sadida don't control them + they increase heal resistance unlike pure earth Sadida build that doesn't even need to use dolls). Earth is cool at protection (the numbers of bambly armor applied need to be higher though) air is cool at dealing dmg (the cost to summon ultrapowerful need to be lowered though) and water is cool at ... uhg well its not best in anything. Water can just summon cheap dolls, but i'd like to see each doll with the same cost to be summoned wich will just make it no longer the utility of water branch. The greedy dolls are too weak, have just 4base MP and are attacking only at melee distance - they are not even able to attack multiiple times as they used to during beta when they were nettled or buffed by Sadida with Rust. Sadida itself can't support them much. The best thing it can do is cast air spells via them - wich lead to multi element build, but water spells itself are not really useful. The only direct heal Sadida have (mudoll) is very weak and not gonna help you more then Wild Grass's brambly armor.

Yeah, voodoll definitely does need some changes, though i disagree that it is easy for enemies to kill when you are using saddidas tear since you dont need to target the voodoll.

I think that it should work under all the same rules as a normal doll(so it gives back wp or whatever doll will do) I also think we should be able to summon multiple ones.

Imagine summoning voodolls on all your allies and then using saddidas tear to damage enemies while healing the whole team, i think that would be very fun .

Really i think the other water spells (mainly drain and rust) deserve a buff but its not so important. The thing about the saddidas elements is the grass is always greener on the other side.

While you cry about water, the earth saddidas cry about bramble shield not being useful in normal fights and manifold costing 6 ap (where the panda one only costs 5) and stare at saddidas tear and drain in jealousy as they hate that wildgrass damages the voodoll and that you can use your best spell twice in a 10 ap build, also that you can support in aoe.

While air crys that its dolls are too easily killed, they have less hp than greedy while costing much more, and that the poisons are worthless when they require dolls to stay alive and use doll stats, which means they cant break resists where a greedy can, also that damage dealing dolls cost 9 ap to summon.

Out of all the builds i think pure water is the best and most versatile even though it has its own issues that you already know, in direct pvp you will probably lose to the others but you are still the most desired in a normal pve group, which holds the majority of game content.

Really, i think we should focus on the things that we all really want changed for now, talking about something as specific as earthquake was a mistake, lets all push for one small thing, like the lone saddida change to see if we can actually get anything at all done.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 03, 2013, 22:52:12 | #17
I like your idea for this spell to hit random enemy. though it would obviously change the base value of the spell to be 2x weaker then currently as it will be simply accurate. This would allow Sadida to stay where it is and still hit those who try to run away from Sadida. As long as it also hurt allies Sadida will need to be careful not to use it if at least 1 ally is within possible aoe of the earthquake. It would be interesting indeed.

The fact that Earthquake is strong for the 1MP cost is because it may not hurt enemy. The fact that it can hurt allies for that high dmg is not nice though. As long as i would like to see Earthquake as something powerful i would not like to hurt allies for high dmg. Obviously making you predict the possible target zone (only enemies) will help a lot. However if it would still hurt dolls then it will lack of synergy with keeping enemies busy with dolls. The only situation in wich you might actually cast this spell would be when you would manage to make enemy trapped with dolls away from you or when enemy will be trying to kite you. Casting Brambly Armor on self to avoid long range damage while making enemy suffer at any distance form Earthquake sounds awsome.

Your idea to make it hit only enmies is somehow brilliant. It still add risk to hit ourself or allies if enemy is too close, but give some posibilities to use this spell in certain situiations.

As for targeting i think it should be cast on ourself in order to trigger it, no matter what other change will be made to it - this is to be always able to cast it (as long as we have MP).

Logically an Earthquake is force of nature that cannot be avoided by hiding behind something. Same goes for rain - wich is why i am suggesting the change to Sadida's Tear to allow Sadida to hit the enemy no matter where it hide. The difference would be though the Sadida's Tear will require Voodoll to be summoned in advance while Earthquake can be used right away and anytime, but preferably when enemy is not within 2 cells of Sadida or any other ally. Still i think that just like Rust, the Earthquake should not hurt the dolls. Maybe it should even make them Nettled? I would like to be able to use MP to nettle dolls like that (without hurting myself to do that if possible).

If the earth spells would apply Brambly Armor to Sadida instead of Armor-To-Be then it would be even nice synergy to cast it even if enemy is in close combat with us, though it would reduce the armor on Sadida but would possibly hurt multiple enemies in same time.

I think such change should make the spell still cost 1MP to cast but dmg at level 100 should be 20 instead of 40. Or it could cost 2MP and keep the dmg at 40 at level 100 (considering it hurt allies).

p.s. I know my opinion changed but its because i gave more thoughts to this issue.


Quote
Yeah, voodoll definitely does need some changes, though i disagree that it is easy for enemies to kill when you are using saddidas tear since you dont need to target the voodoll. I think that it should work under all the same rules as a normal doll(so it gives back wp or whatever doll will do) I also think we should be able to summon multiple ones. Imagine summoning voodolls on all your allies and then using saddidas tear to damage enemies while healing the whole team, i think that would be very fun . Really i think the other water spells (mainly drain and rust) deserve a buff but its not so important. The thing about the saddidas elements is the grass is always greener on the other side. While you cry about water, the earth saddidas cry about bramble shield not being useful in normal fights and manifold costing 6 ap (where the panda one only costs 5) and stare at saddidas tear and drain in jealousy as they hate that wildgrass damages the voodoll and that you can use your best spell twice in a 10 ap build, also that you can support in aoe. While air crys that its dolls are too easily killed, they have less hp than greedy while costing much more, and that the poisons are worthless when they require dolls to stay alive and use doll stats, which means they cant break resists where a greedy can, also that damage dealing dolls cost 9 ap to summon. Out of all the builds i think pure water is the best and most versatile even though it has its own issues that you already know, in direct pvp you will probably lose to the others but you are still the most desired in a normal pve group, which holds the majority of game content. Really, i think we should focus on the things that we all really want changed for now, talking about something as specific as earthquake was a mistake, lets all push for one small thing, like the lone saddida change to see if we can actually get anything at all done.
The ultrapowerful dolls have THE SAME HP as the greedy doll.

The only desired about water sadida in team is the heal and only heal. People don't want to see you using the greedy dolls, no matter the situation. Wich is just sad. I even hate the fact that they turned water branch to healing one. I like water branch to be focused on dmg dealing and dmg dealing with dolls togather. The Lone Sadida is the issue here mostly as i can't use sadida's tear dmg effectively while having dolls summoned meanwhile earth Sadida is best without dolls and people prefer earth Sadidas as they shield them and dont spam the field with "useless" dolls that just "block the way and slow down the fight". However air dolls are still welcome as they reduce resistance of enemy or push things around making positioning much easier. While in team as water Sadida i feel useless, especially if eniripsa is also in that team. Meanwhile as earth Sadida i can always feel useful, same goes for Air Sadida - they have something that cannot be replaced. The ultrapowefful may be as fragile as greedy but by controling it you may keep it at distance - its the only doll that can kite. It is huge adventage over the greedy doll who need to stay in close combat and doesn't even have any dodge to move to the enemy side for the next water doll to attack.

Swarm of water dolls interupt each other, meanwhile swarm of ultrapowerful dolls co-operate well due to no LoS and range attacks. I've been doing plenty of pvpes lately and i kept changing my water dolls to air ones in the middle of the fight, because the greedy was simply not that effective (as water /air sadida). Meanwhile as water/earth Sadida i was indeed using the greedy dolls (as my air dmg was sucky) but i couldnt do any reasonable dmg to enemy myself wich only lead me to spaming wild grass and bramble on myself to make dolls do the dmg while i shield myself. Sadida's Tear is not really that great as it require too many AP investment (4AP to make voodoll in 1st turn) and in order to be effective with dolls you also need spare ap's to summon dolls (4AP for each so need to be 12 ap build). And even then its not effective because you lack of dmg% boost. The best thing i can do as water sadida is to cast rust spell on dolls and spam earthquake on map edge to make them nettled. Its the really the best thing i can do for highest dmg output and belive me its too hard to trigger due to enemy not being simply a rock that stand in place and let the dolls survive while surrounding it. Add to it the awkwardness of targeting with Rust spell (you need to be diagonally with enemy that is surrounded with 4 greedy dolls) and you will realise its propably the worst spell in game. Vaporize is not great for doing dmg either. I'd rather use Poisoned Wind with my 2 AP left even if my water dmg% is the same as air dmg% and if both Vaporize and Poisoned Wind has the same levels. Water is pretty much underpowered - it rely on dolls and those dolls cannot be supported by Sadida in anything else then underpowered Rust spell, meanwhile those dolls do low dmg and are melee with no even poison effect added.

And you are wrong about poisons that need dolls to be alive - its only sudden chill like that. The intoxicated and tetatoxin remain on enemy even if it kill dolls that applied those.

But i can agree every element of Sadida has its own issues. This is why i am not focusing to change 1 element only but all togather. I don't know if its wise as Troyle or Sabi will rather translate short descriptions of the issues and solutions to them rather then a wall of text and its preferably 1 issue in 1 seperate topic (just like in bug section), wich only makes it more difficult to actually make us have what we want. One does not simply talk about change to 1 spell without mentioning the change needed to the spells related to it.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté December 04, 2013, 00:02:57 | #18
Wow, you're right, guess it always feels like less hp because they cost so much and are much more important.

Lets be honest, the sudden chill poison is the only real important one, intoxicated damage was never increased with the level 200 spells, so it will be less effective as we go, and the other one resets each turn anyway, its more like a damage spell based on how much ap/mp they have, its damage would be quite good if it wasn't the ultrapowerful damage they use. All three have issues

Id settle for that earthquake, its not that interesting but its better than the current.

Btw i have a bit of advice to get more people supporting the changes rather than shoot them down. Let the raw numbers be decided by grou, but say what he should consider.

Like instead of the tree thing which lots of people have a problem with:

Consider that the 50% resistance on tree is negligible in high level content, Try to modify it to help make saddida tanks more viable, as at the moment other tank classes vastly outperform them. Perhaps it also has some kind of interaction with bramble armor, like the sacriers active ability that doubles its coagulation.


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - December 04, 2013, 00:04:53.
Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2008-05-13
posté December 04, 2013, 00:55:48 | #19
I am lazy to read allll that stuff right now, but I'd like to leave a note.

The current air branch poisons are too weak, I am lazy but I'm slowly working in a revamp suggestion to make the Air branch a strong poison class. So far all poisons in game could be considered as a secondary source of damage.
Sadidas are shamans and they should detain the knowledge of the strongest poisons of the world of twelve.

One of the spells I'd replace in my suggestion is Stench, it's replaced by Blowpipe that barely deals any damage but adds a poison that, if stacked, can do up to 150 air damage at level 200. Another idea I had was to add a support type spell to the air branch, I know that sounds weird, but that's how it'd work: the spell can only be cast on yourself and it adds a poison effect to all following spells cast, making interesting to go hybrid for example.
The other spells wouldn't remain untouched, despite of their usefulness. The Resistance loss of sudden chill could be moved to Gust, K'mir not touched and Poisoned Wind buffed. A passive dedicated to the air branch should be created.

I find it rather pointless having two spells that trigger Nettled, despite of how they actually do it, directly or indirectly. This is something that should be taken into consideration.

Another thing is that to remove all that problem and lack of doll diversity would be to create a window analogous to Osa gobgobs with doll spell, so we can directly summon dolls without the need of wasting precious seconds in casting a spell on an inanimate seed.



Anooother thing I thought of was to add to the Sadida Class an advantage (a passive to be exactly), against the fire element. Why fire element? Because Sadidas are protectors of the forest, would be interesting to have some kind of advantage or resistance passive ability related to this.

Well, that's it now ^^
Hopefully in 2014 they will revamp this class >.>

Note: I hate how they added that unbewitchment ability to Skale and not Sadis. Would be great such an ability on Vaporize for example ...

Note 2: Kikui, Tree is one of the best Sadi spells. It grants resistance and heals, and also stabilizes you. It shouldn't at all obey the current damage/heal per AP patterns. It's one of the spells I would never touch at all, I use it all the time :S

Edit 3:

A preview



This post has been edited by Niddhoggy - December 04, 2013, 01:19:32.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 04, 2013, 02:16:30 | #20
@Haka - i don't really want the Tree spell to be related to Brambly Armor at all, because that would make it pointless to even be chromatic as only earth sadida will benefit from it. Its chromatic in order to make each branch benefit from it equally. The fact that earth can steal MP give it more use of it, however if the Madoll will give MP stolen to the Sadida, then other branches will also have as much benefit from it. Basically i don't want to change the way it works (i dont want to revamp it) as it might never happen. Instead i am suggesting to rebalance the numbers of it. I'd like to reduce needed revamp of spells to the necessary minimum.

@Nidd - there can be plenty of ideas concering poisons (the dolls could have poison aura around self and poison anyone in contact with them for example) but its like adding sprakly stars to the rotten plant to make it look better. The poison values might need rebalance, maybe air spells need cost rebalance or maybe it would be just enough to make us able to summon ultrapowerful with just 2AP cost of the seed (a full AP/MP refund of air spell that made ultrapowerful doll from seed) - my point is that Sadida mechanic as it is is satisfying. The issue are numbers and cost of the spells (+ Lone Sadida should work with dolls and doll link should work with all dolls too and voodoll need to work differently (but it doesn't need to be summoned in different way, even though we could came up with such idea)).

@Nidd - I'd like to be able to use the Tree spell with synergy with dolls. Therefore i don't want dolls to cost WP (so i can use Tree with them). A bonus of 50% resistance itself is not much and i am surprised you are satisfied with it as most classes can get bonus dmg of 100% if not more during fight (or they start with 100%+ dmg bonus). Every class except maybe Feca have low resist and it leads to fight where initiative decides who will win (and fight end after 2 turns). As Sadida i don't accept that as i am supposed to support the allies and therefore i should be sturdy enough to survive long enough. The resistance bonus of 50% to already low resistance is nothing really. A Feca can get more bonus to resist from Peacful armor and it last several turns + glyphs can make it even higher. I see no reason not to give sadida a 1 turn high resist bonus.

A heal with base of 5.5 for 1MP is a joke. Imagine Scara Wing to do 11 base dmg at level 100 instead of 29 (it cost 2MP - its spell of osamodas) pathetic isn't it? Its half... no wait... its 3 times weaker base dmg then it currently has (more or less)! How can you accept it the way it is? Maybe lets nerf all of Sadida spells 3 times to fit the heal of the Tree? Seriously, i am dissapointed.