Back to forum.wakfu.com

By continuing to browse this website, you consent to the use of cookies, which enable us to offer you customised content and to collect site-visit statistics.
Click on this link for more information on cookies, and to customise your cookie preferences. X

No flash

An awesome idea
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 01, 2013, 05:38:56 | #1
An awesome idea Dolly-Sacrifice the problem :

Dear Ankama,

Where we position our seeds is very important.
This determines distance from enemy and we must be considerate of doll mp and doll distance to our enemy.
We all know your doll ai is retarded [no offense]
Sometimes I have to sacrifice one of those suckers just get rid of them from the playing field because they are annoying.
Also with the limited mobility you have given them of (1~4 mp) it is hard for them to keep up with post lvl 100 targets that have TONS OF MP in both pve and pvp

You've made the current Dolly Sacrifice to always cost 2ap no matter what and in order for me to get wp/ap back I must sacrifice the doll completely.

The Suggestion

Dear Ankama,

You've given rogues ap back for bombs. Y'U'NO DO DIS FOR DOLLY SACRIFICE and seeds?

The Details

Dear Ankama,

If you must torture me.. by making me spend 2ap to summon a doll, 4 ap to cast chill.

Let me get the full ap when i sacrifice the doll. It is the most minute compensation you can give me for the retarded doll ai.

Or at least half of the ap used to cast [spells used on dolls]. Instead of costing me 1~2ap no matter what.

I could really care less about the 16.22 chromatic heals you have given to me. These heals mean nothing to me when they are so costly and monsters are dealing 1-1.5+ thousand per turn.

A Victim of Grou's Punishment,
Aquabeauty
 


This post has been edited by aquabeauty - December 01, 2013, 14:29:17.
Short Strich * Member Since 2013-11-02
posté December 01, 2013, 12:12:10 | #2
I still don't understand how osa's 3000hp summons cost 1wp and 3ap while an air's sadida 200hp ultra powerful costs 1wp 6ap

I thought grou was the best math person at ankama


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 05, 2013, 01:42:34 | #3
I think that this comes back to the idea that an Osa is suppose to use one summon, whilst sadida is meant to mob, the potential of the dolls is vast and it is what makes our class great. However, Ankama has taken a stance in suppressing us to the point where our dolls are boarder line useless.

Because character stats do not transfer over, my mp dolls can only take away 3 mp before building up 70%+ hypermovement. Same thing with the ap dolls. Quite unfair when xelors are a dpt class and they are taking away 4ap per turn.

I do not believe we need a full revamp, I just believe we need to be adjusted a bit. Doll costs need to be treated differently for each branch particularly these mp/ap dolls that are borderlineuseless since they refuse to have our stats transferred over at a fair rate. The ap costs need to be reevaluated but over all I am happy with everything else.

i just want doll control; full doll control. And I want to be able to summon two per turn. This is not possible with a 12 ap build. Since vaporize would cost 2ap.

I am not sure if you do it through dolly sacrifice, since that is what I am suggesting today. But definitely we need to address that active along with the passive of doll link. My idea is that if you do not allow us to summon two per turn then every turn after after using a passive which we have to level (that is the cost) we get some ap back which allows us to summon dolls two per turn (maximizing the potential of the dolly seed passive which allows us to summon 2 dolls which we can not currently take full advantage of) after casting a 1~2 dolls. This gives us more versatility in map occupation, utility and doll placement.

I think tha earth dados are not yet tanks and really need an hp gaining passive in order to become what they were conceived to be. My earth sadida has 500% base dmg, 6mp. But in order to become a tank my Sadida needs more hp. So not to complicate things but; doll seeds and the doll sacrificing SHOULD have a direct link to earth Sadi hp. Rather than their ap.

Above all, it should not be a chromatic % of Sadi dmg. We -are not- allowed to specialize in damage, so this is completely counter-intuitive.

Silly Ankama. It's as counter intuitive as Sadi tree. Which is based on mp consumption and yet all our spells cost mp. Gee thanks.


This post has been edited by aquabeauty - December 05, 2013, 05:24:24.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté December 05, 2013, 02:24:59 | #4

Quote (aquabeauty @ 05 December 2013 01:42) *
i just want doll control; full doll control.

That would make me a happy Sadi. I'd also enjoy an HP and Lock increase for the dolls.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 05, 2013, 02:34:25 | #5

Quote (Gynrei @ 05 December 2013 02:24) *

Quote (aquabeauty @ 05 December 2013 01:42) *
i just want doll control; full doll control.

That would make me a happy Sadi. I'd also enjoy an HP and Lock increase for the dolls.
*pats*

i know know the feels.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 05, 2013, 13:14:55 | #6
The skills Explodoll and Dolly Sarifice as well as even Tree spell were all based on Sadida's HP, just like the Dolls HP. It was the reason why Sadida spells were weak as it could deal dmg based on HP as an alternative form of fighting, while remaining as tank/support class. For some uknown reason (my guess is: because of some iop-brained players who wanted sadida to be dmg dealer instead of tank) the Grou decided to get rid of any form of damage based on HP and replaced it with the numbers based on Sadida lvl.

The chromatic concept is not bad but the values we get are too low.

Now i don't think we should get both : the AP and the heal from sacrificing the doll. I'd rather make Lethargic doll to steal AP from enemy and give it to Sadida. I would also like dolly sacrifice to heal more then it already is and to make it cost 0AP to use with better range so that i don't need to move in order to remove the doll from cell.

The Sadida concept does not need Sadida to have more HP. It was always like that:

Sacrier tank due to high HP
Feca tank due to high resistance
Sadida tank due to reduced dmg taken per each doll summoned.

In other words Sadida didn't needed own HP boost because dolls summoned acted like additional HP for Sadida (it was before revamp). We could make really good use of this mechanic now after the change that made us get the WP back when dolls die.

The reason why Sadida had never HP bonus was to simply make it different then a simple +x% HP bonus passive that iop have.

The fact that Ankama changed Doll Link to reduce silly 10% of dmg taken and give half of it as dmg to enemy was the worst thing ever that Ankama could make to Sadida. It's like removing Sacrier's Blood Pact from the Sacrier passives compeltly. Thats how much impact the revamp of Sadida had.

I wouldn't even mind if the Lone Sadida would remain unchanged if only they would bring back the Doll Link passive to redirect dmg from Sadida to dolls. That would however make dolls die even faster then before the revamp. Do note before revamp the Greedy had 28% of Sadida max HP and even then it was dieing too fast. I was looking at every aspect of the game, including UB fights, group pvp, 1 vs 1 pvp, any pve at equal level content - and i came to conclusion that in order for dolls to keep up, the Greedy would need to have ~34% of Sadida max HP. Then it would be enough for that dolls to survive in the fight for more then 1 turn in pvp and also enough for it to be reliable damage sponge in pve. It would however require it to have resistance changed too - it should b adapted to the content level and there's no better way to achieve that then by making dolls with the same resist as Sadida - afterall we change equipement as we progress in order to be able to fight higher level enemies. The HP i've mentioned for the Greedy would be also enough for the Doll Link to redirect dmg from Sadida to it in case Sadida get hurt. The only real issue would be when Sadida get aoe'd with dolls togather - but with the change for dolls to get 50% of aoe dmg it would still be viable.


I think Ankama made too many passives related on 1 type of doll - voodoll, instead of making them usable for the Sadida no matter what kind of doll it decide to summon. The Voodoll in my opinion should be just 1 speciality and nothing more. It should be seperate from the spell that allow us to make the Seed but only due to technical difficulties to decide to whom this voodoll should be linked (there could be an solution to make the voodoll summoned with the same spell as other dolls but its not necessary as far as i am aware). The point is that Voodoll is the only doll that currently make Sadida have any use of the Doll Link - and that is bad design. Its like making The Blocker as the only doll that get MP bonus from nettle - wich is bad design too.

A speciality that work only for 1 type of doll should not exist. If anything every passive should affect all dolls or no dolls at all.

This is why i am suggesting to make Doll Link redirect dmg from Sadida to dolls, while keeping the effect to make it also redirect dmg to target of Voodoll.

The Knowledge of dolls could not just increase HP of Voodoll by 100% but also HP of other dolls by 100%. Do note that it would make current the Greedy doll that have 17% HP to have exactly 34% of HP!

As for summoning dolls i think each doll should have the same cost to be summoned, just like osamodas have the same cost to summon any type of creature (it is always 3AP from AP pool of Osamodas to summon something from gobgob). While i mention this the dolls should not cost more then osamodas summoning, wich negate any form of casting spell that cost more then 1 AP on seed in order to make the doll - and that would make the doll cost 3AP to summon, but obviously there's no 1AP elemental spells in Sadida branches. And like i said its still 3AP wich is the same cost of the osmaodas creature. Considering the HP and dmg of the single creature of Osamodas, i am getting the feeling that summoning doll should cost 1AP. But i could deal with 2AP as well as its still lower cost.

The only logical way the Ankama could achieve the same cost of any doll is by making any of the Sadida's single target spells to refund full cost to Sadida when they are being cast on the Seed. That would let Ankama have control of the doll's summoning cost - wich would be the same as the seed itself. Obviously using 5AP spell to hit the seed (Sadida's Tear) would not be possible if Sadida would not have spare 5AP after placing the seed, but i could still accept such cons.

The fact that xelor can summon 4sinistros even within 1 turn or the fact that Osamodas can summon 2 creatures with each being 3x or 4x better then a single doll only make me came to conclusion that there should be no limit to the number of seeds per turn. Now if they would cost 1AP that could be abusive, but with 2AP cost for seed it would still be acceptable.

As for the WP cost - there are instances that won't let Sadida use WP often, and it will do so when it will want to summon doll or re-summon it in different cell. Loosing WP does not stop foggernaut from making blockades nor xelor from making sinistros, it also doesnt stop foggernaut from using microbots, nor rogue from using bombs. The WP on Osamodas make it loose some HP in those instances (Nun dungeon) but only for the first turn. The name Osamodas came from "sadomaso" wich should actually not bother the Osamodas, especially if its just 1 time dmg received in that dungeon (osamodas creatures are sturdy and hit hard, the osamodas doesn't need to summon more then 1 or 2 creatures for the whole fight and this is where his WP usage needs ends). As for Sadida it will use WP propably every turn if not every second turn. Also in order to achieve something equal to 2 summons of osamodas it would need to make 8 dolls - wich is already impossible due to limit of 6WP and even if Sadida would summon these 6 dolls, it will suffer 3 times more damage in Nun dungeon then the Osamodas would while trying to achieve the same potential.

The Nun dungeon is not the only issue. The critical failure that Osamodas or ecaflip can apply to Sadida - if it will make Sadida fail to place the seed - sadida will permanently loose the Doll for the whole fight! Just like that, simply. I don't mind loosing AP when i crit fail, but WP is different. I wouldn't mind loosing WP if the seed would not cost WP - i would just loose the ability to turn to Tree or to make Voodoll. We can already see with the revamp of the Sadida that the fact that Sadida can summon dolls without permanently loosing WP is fine gameplay of the Sadida. Ankama could therefore as well remove the WP cost of the seed.

If it comes to controling doll: be it by spell that has no range limits and no LoS or a spell that Sadida cast on self or if the dolls would be controled by default - i really don't mind. I would accept anything as long as it won't cost AP and will allow me to control any doll on the field regardless of the distance between me and the doll.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 05, 2013, 15:15:08 | #7

Quote
Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 2013-12-05 13:14:55)The skills Explodoll and Dolly Sarifice as well as even Tree spell were all based on Sadida's HP, just like the Dolls HP. It was the reason why Sadida spells were weak as it could deal dmg based on HP as an alternative form of fighting, while remaining as tank/support class. For some uknown reason (my guess is: because of some iop-brained players who wanted sadida to be dmg dealer instead of tank) the Grou decided to get rid of any form of damage based on HP and replaced it with the numbers based on Sadida lvl.The chromatic concept is not bad but the values we get are too low. Now i don't think we should get both : the AP and the heal from sacrificing the doll. I'd rather make Lethargic doll to steal AP from enemy and give it to Sadida. I would also like dolly sacrifice to heal more then it already is and to make it cost 0AP to use with better range so that i don't need to move in order to remove the doll from cell. The Sadida concept does not need Sadida to have more HP. It was always like that:Sacrier tank due to high HPFeca tank due to high resistanceSadida tank due to reduced dmg taken per each doll summoned.In other words Sadida didn't needed own HP boost because dolls summoned acted like additional HP for Sadida (it was before revamp). We could make really good use of this mechanic now after the change that made us get the WP back when dolls die.The reason why Sadida had never HP bonus was to simply make it different then a simple +x% HP bonus passive that iop have.The fact that Ankama changed Doll Link to reduce silly 10% of dmg taken and give half of it as dmg to enemy was the worst thing ever that Ankama could make to Sadida. It's like removing Sacrier's Blood Pact from the Sacrier passives compeltly. Thats how much impact the revamp of Sadida had.I wouldn't even mind if the Lone Sadida would remain unchanged if only they would bring back the Doll Link passive to redirect dmg from Sadida to dolls. That would however make dolls die even faster then before the revamp. Do note before revamp the Greedy had 28% of Sadida max HP and even then it was dieing too fast. I was looking at every aspect of the game, including UB fights, group pvp, 1 vs 1 pvp, any pve at equal level content - and i came to conclusion that in order for dolls to keep up, the Greedy would need to have ~34% of Sadida max HP. Then it would be enough for that dolls to survive in the fight for more then 1 turn in pvp and also enough for it to be reliable damage sponge in pve. It would however require it to have resistance changed too - it should b adapted to the content level and there's no better way to achieve that then by making dolls with the same resist as Sadida - afterall we change equipement as we progress in order to be able to fight higher level enemies. The HP i've mentioned for the Greedy would be also enough for the Doll Link to redirect dmg from Sadida to it in case Sadida get hurt. The only real issue would be when Sadida get aoe'd with dolls togather - but with the change for dolls to get 50% of aoe dmg it would still be viable.I think Ankama made too many passives related on 1 type of doll - voodoll, instead of making them usable for the Sadida no matter what kind of doll it decide to summon. The Voodoll in my opinion should be just 1 speciality and nothing more. It should be seperate from the spell that allow us to make the Seed but only due to technical difficulties to decide to whom this voodoll should be linked (there could be an solution to make the voodoll summoned with the same spell as other dolls but its not necessary as far as i am aware). The point is that Voodoll is the only doll that currently make Sadida have any use of the Doll Link - and that is bad design. Its like making The Blocker as the only doll that get MP bonus from nettle - wich is bad design too.A speciality that work only for 1 type of doll should not exist. If anything every passive should affect all dolls or no dolls at all.This is why i am suggesting to make Doll Link redirect dmg from Sadida to dolls, while keeping the effect to make it also redirect dmg to target of Voodoll.The Knowledge of dolls could not just increase HP of Voodoll by 100% but also HP of other dolls by 100%. Do note that it would make current the Greedy doll that have 17% HP to have exactly 34% of HP!As for summoning dolls i think each doll should have the same cost to be summoned, just like osamodas have the same cost to summon any type of creature (it is always 3AP from AP pool of Osamodas to summon something from gobgob). While i mention this the dolls should not cost more then osamodas summoning, wich negate any form of casting spell that cost more then 1 AP on seed in order to make the doll - and that would make the doll cost 3AP to summon, but obviously there's no 1AP elemental spells in Sadida branches. And like i said its still 3AP wich is the same cost of the osmaodas creature. Considering the HP and dmg of the single creature of Osamodas, i am getting the feeling that summoning doll should cost 1AP. But i could deal with 2AP as well as its still lower cost.The only logical way the Ankama could achieve the same cost of any doll is by making any of the Sadida's single target spells to refund full cost to Sadida when they are being cast on the Seed. That would let Ankama have control of the doll's summoning cost - wich would be the same as the seed itself. Obviously using 5AP spell to hit the seed (Sadida's Tear) would not be possible if Sadida would not have spare 5AP after placing the seed, but i could still accept such cons.The fact that xelor can summon 4sinistros even within 1 turn or the fact that Osamodas can summon 2 creatures with each being 3x or 4x better then a single doll only make me came to conclusion that there should be no limit to the number of seeds per turn. Now if they would cost 1AP that could be abusive, but with 2AP cost for seed it would still be acceptable.As for the WP cost - there are instances that won't let Sadida use WP often, and it will do so when it will want to summon doll or re-summon it in different cell. Loosing WP does not stop foggernaut from making blockades nor xelor from making sinistros, it also doesnt stop foggernaut from using microbots, nor rogue from using bombs. The WP on Osamodas make it loose some HP in those instances (Nun dungeon) but only for the first turn. The name Osamodas came from "sadomaso" wich should actually not bother the Osamodas, especially if its just 1 time dmg received in that dungeon (osamodas creatures are sturdy and hit hard, the osamodas doesn't need to summon more then 1 or 2 creatures for the whole fight and this is where his WP usage needs ends). As for Sadida it will use WP propably every turn if not every second turn. Also in order to achieve something equal to 2 summons of osamodas it would need to make 8 dolls - wich is already impossible due to limit of 6WP and even if Sadida would summon these 6 dolls, it will suffer 3 times more damage in Nun dungeon then the Osamodas would while trying to achieve the same potential.The Nun dungeon is not the only issue. The critical failure that Osamodas or ecaflip can apply to Sadida - if it will make Sadida fail to place the seed - sadida will permanently loose the Doll for the whole fight! Just like that, simply. I don't mind loosing AP when i crit fail, but WP is different. I wouldn't mind loosing WP if the seed would not cost WP - i would just loose the ability to turn to Tree or to make Voodoll. We can already see with the revamp of the Sadida that the fact that Sadida can summon dolls without permanently loosing WP is fine gameplay of the Sadida. Ankama could therefore as well remove the WP cost of the seed.If it comes to controling doll: be it by spell that has no range limits and no LoS or a spell that Sadida cast on self or if the dolls would be controled by default - i really don't mind. I would accept anything as long as it won't cost AP and will allow me to control any doll on the field regardless of the distance between me and the doll. Add Quote Here

Although I think that increasing doll link would be better for doll-based users and this is something that I have petitioned for. I think that the bramble shell sadida is a wonderful addition to the earth branch.

Currently I am earth, i use my mp dolls the most. Because I am squishy and my tactic is to kite my opponents [6mp, remove their mp, etc] Unlike a xelor I do not have decreased hyperaction, nor do my dolls have increased mp removal, so their abilities cap out after the second turn; removing 3~4 mp max between two dolls. With out removing mp, just the attempt makes hypermovement go up which is bullshit.

This bothers me. It is the same case with the ap dolls. That's why I would like for hp. Even with dolls *tanking* their lock is not quite high, classes have push moves that cost 2ap and most surpass their lock mechanic. We haven't gotten more doll lock, hp, or a change to doll link. So i grow tired of asking for multiple things when I could ask for one.


Quote
The fact that Ankama changed Doll Link to reduce silly 10% of dmg taken and give half of it as dmg to enemy was the worst thing ever that Ankama could make to Sadida. It's like removing Sacrier's Blood Pact from the Sacrier passives compeltly. Thats how much impact the revamp of Sadida had.
Something which I still don't understand, it still leaves me wondering... why do this?

About crit fails, its just really unfortunate. I dont know where I stand on crit-fails. For summoner based classes if definitely has a greater impact. I hate crit fails when I am using a wp based move. For me all my moves [since I rely on dolls] are wp based, so yes quite annoying.


My stance is give them as little as they have to fix as a solution to the class. Since it is obvious they hate us, could care less about our money, etc.


Quote
Grou decided to get rid of any form of damage based on HP and replaced it with the numbers based on Sadida lvl.
Yeah no, I dont think hp based dolls or dmg based chromatic works. The problem with this is that IF I could just focus on making my dolls stronger and my sadida stronger then my sadi would be better. Because what they keep doing is

making my dolls weak
making my sadi weak
making gear possibilities week
making stats not transfer over to dolls.

See unlike an osa we can't gear for our dolls with anything other than hp, "dmg" [i say that in quotations because they've made the variable so low to the point where its irrelevant] and thats it. I can't work on my dolls, and they are always supressed. Gear does not cater to sadida players, because it is debuffed in hp etc and other stats in order to be balanced with other classes who are already over powered... and could be more overpowered with such gear.

We sort of have the short end of the stick because of these hp~tactics. Also we do not specialize in dmg, thats not what we do, so why base any of our major stats on dmg? Thats just the easy way out and the wrong one too.


This post has been edited by aquabeauty - December 05, 2013, 15:20:31.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 05, 2013, 15:27:49 | #8

Quote
My stance is give them as little as they have to fix as a solution to the class. Since it is obvious they hate us, could care less about our money, etc.

 


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 05, 2013, 16:29:25 | #9

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 05 December 2013 15:27) *

Quote
My stance is give them as little as they have to fix as a solution to the class. Since it is obvious they hate us, could care less about our money, etc.

I see that, but realistically... ankama works by putting in little effort.

After years of feedback and complaints and bug reports. I've tried to dumb down everything, down to my post format, how long my posts are, the bug reports. EVERYTHING

Its like potty-training a toddler. This is the last resort I have to try.

They dont read long posts
They dont want major revamps, they just want "rebalancings"

So if I try any harder than that, I will only get more depressed.


posté December 05, 2013, 17:05:31 | #10

Quote (aquabeauty @ 05 December 2013 16:29) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 05 December 2013 15:27) *

Quote
My stance is give them as little as they have to fix as a solution to the class. Since it is obvious they hate us, could care less about our money, etc.

I see that, but realistically... ankama works by putting in little effort.

After years of feedback and complaints and bug reports. I've tried to dumb down everything, down to my post format, how long my posts are, the bug reports. EVERYTHING

Its like potty-training a toddler. This is the last resort I have to try.

They dont read long posts
They dont want major revamps, they just want "rebalancings"

So if I try any harder than that, I will only get more depressed.

I personally believe that Ankama is doing their best, however they may be understaffed which is why they take about a year to do anything. And Sadidas are too hot to be nerfed further. :p


This post has been edited by SeriousBelly - December 05, 2013, 17:06:34.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 05, 2013, 18:03:27 | #11

Quote (SeriousBelly @ 05 December 2013 17:05) *

Quote (aquabeauty @ 05 December 2013 16:29) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 05 December 2013 15:27) *

Quote
My stance is give them as little as they have to fix as a solution to the class. Since it is obvious they hate us, could care less about our money, etc.

I see that, but realistically... ankama works by putting in little effort.

After years of feedback and complaints and bug reports. I've tried to dumb down everything, down to my post format, how long my posts are, the bug reports. EVERYTHING

Its like potty-training a toddler. This is the last resort I have to try.

They dont read long posts
They dont want major revamps, they just want "rebalancings"

So if I try any harder than that, I will only get more depressed.

I personally believe that Ankama is doing their best, however they may be understaffed which is why they take about a year to do anything. And Sadidas are too hot to be nerfed further. :p
I hope you are right. But every patch we receive more and more nerfs just check the documents. It's like a slap in the face.

Again I do not know why people keep saying they are understaffed. I think they just don't know how to set priorities... they are always picking up on "NEW THIS" and "NEW THAT" instead of fixing what exists and is currently flawed. That's probably why their work builds up.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 06, 2013, 00:12:01 | #12
So i've just took a look at Eniripsa's spells and something hit me:

The massacurring Mark - when it triggers the mark will explode and give as follows:

[lvl 100]:
+20% fire dmg to eniripsa
-80 HP (fire) to enemies around
+80 HP (fire) to allies around



Now if you look at Sadida's Explodoll:

[lvl 100]:
-10 HP (chromatic) to enemies around
+10 HP (chromatic) to allies around



Does Ankama even realise this huge gap and lack of balance? I mean.... its like there are 14 people named Grou and each of them revamp its own class without knowing about the other 13th Grou's existance!


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - December 06, 2013, 01:39:10.
Reason for edit : typo's
Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2011-07-05
posté December 06, 2013, 01:52:16 | #13
I'd be glad to trade you mass mark for the +150% damage/heals, then.


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-03-10
posté December 06, 2013, 01:56:20 | #14
Green happy face for Aqua


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 06, 2013, 10:33:02 | #15

Quote (smallz117 @ 06 December 2013 01:52) *
I'd be glad to trade you mass mark for the +150% damage/heals, then.
Uhhhhh, no

Eni's have higher base dmg, propagator, and UR Supplement.

Is that sarcasm?



Quote (Starbux @ 06 December 2013 01:56) *
Green happy face for Aqua
Lmbos no worries im use to this sadida-depression. I am just trying to suggest some minor fixes.

On the sadi forums.. we tend to get derailed with rants of how everything could be slightly better...


--- On that note ---

Everyone please understand my stance on this;

My target are the dolls and the passives.

I suggest that we can adjust them in hope the class can be re balanced with out too much effort and with out the risk of over powering the class. I do not want a complete revamp, just minor tweaks here and there...

Lets try.. to stick to the topic of dolly sacrifice please... x___x I promise to post a composite thread if necessary.. I promise. [after finals]


Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 06 December 2013 00:12) *
So i've just took a look at Eniripsa's spells and something hit me:

The massacurring Mark - when it triggers the mark will explode and give as follows:

[lvl 100]:
+20% fire dmg to eniripsa
-80 HP (fire) to enemies around
+80 HP (fire) to allies around



Now if you look at Sadida's Explodoll:

[lvl 100]:
-10 HP (chromatic) to enemies around
+10 HP (chromatic) to allies around



Does Ankama even realise this huge gap and lack of balance? I mean.... its like there are 14 people named Grou and each of them revamp its own class without knowing about the other 13th Grou's existance!
Not to mention that the marks are supporting the allies through their properties [ap, rebirth of a monster, wp back]

I agree but if we move past just how unfair this is [and it is].

I would say that maybe the issue with explodoll is a balance between doll costs.

If dolls cost less, regardless of the branch, then explodoll would have a greater impact than it currently does. My idea is as follows

Dolls should not capped through doll seed per turn use.
Dolls are capped by control points.
You can feasibly mob
Other properties hp, resist, damage remain the same
Ap costs of dolls is lessened.
OPTIONS:
1. Doll cost is lessened
2. All spells cast on dolls cost 1/2 the ap [there are some problems with this when it comes to the air branch]
3. Suggestion on the thread: Dolly Sacrifice returns ful ap used to cast the doll [meaning if you cast 1 doll on turn 1, which cost you 6ap [lets say an ultra powerful] and it acts retarded but you gain a feel for the map after this try. Then you can sac it next turn and you will get 6ap back. Meaning that with a 10ap build, you will have 16 ap for one turn : 2 dolls turn two, Capped by control points, 1WP refund set up, same dolls stats. Once per turn use on max doll sac.

Then maybe the low damage explodoll would not matter as much because dolls are meant to be sacrificial, It's basically just reflective damage and you can begin to just mob your doll but at the same time placing your dolls strategically [as mentioned above]

It is not quite the rogue bombs passive, but a slightly similar idea catering the support class.


This post has been edited by aquabeauty - December 08, 2013, 00:27:39.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 06, 2013, 20:41:40 | #16

Quote
1. Doll cost is lessened
2. All spells cast on dolls cost 1/2 the ap [there are some problems with this when it comes to the air branch]
3. Suggestion on the thread: Dolly Sacrifice returns ful ap used to cast the doll [meaning if you cast 1 doll on turn 1, which cost you 6ap [lets say an ultra powerful] and it acts retarded but you gain a feel for the map after this try. Then you can sac it next turn and you will get 6ap back. Meaning that with a 10ap build, you will have 16 ap for one turn : 2 dolls turn two, Capped by control points, 1WP refund set up, same dolls stats. Once per turn use on max doll sac.

Then maybe the low damage explodoll would not matter as much because dolls are meant to be sacrificial, It's basically just reflective damage and you can begin to just mob your doll but at the same time placing your dolls strategically [as mentioned above]
1. How would ultrapoweful that was made with Gust spell to remember refund the ap then? I assume it would not refund the AP used to make it remember the Gust spell (or Poisoned Wind).

2. The reasl issue is the actually cost being too high for dolls. The Sadida cannot use enough AP's on its own if it summons dolls (in the same turn it summon them). This issue continue because the dolls die too fast.

3. The mark may be strong but it require enemy to die first and usually enemies doesn't die that easily as dolls - wich might be the reason why dolls deal less dmg upon death. However it is still too low and the dolls as they are are useless tanks, meanwhile i feel they should be sponges for damage - as if walking training dummies that deal no dmg or very low dmg while tanking longer.

4.If dolls had higher HP and more resist then it would be more reasonable to make them deal more dmg via explodoll wich would make us see decent numbers in this passive.

5. The cost of summoning dolls won't affect explodoll - its rather the amount of time/AP's required to kill them wich could determine how powerful the explosion should be.

6. I wouldn't mind giving eniripsa's +150% dmg/heal bonus in exchange for the dmg that marks are doing in explodoll - afterall when i use dolls i don't have that 150% dmg bonus anyway and i used to rely on explodoll before revamp.

Now i don't really think this drastic change is needed as we should keep the dmg increased. However in same time it would require Nettle to not give dmg% boost as it could be too easily to get past someone's resistance. The Nettle could instead give critical hits, wich would simply make dolls deal decent dmg as long as Sadida's dmg% would be proper. The explodoll doesn't need to be as powerful as marks are but i would be satisfied if it would be at least half as strong. Meanwhile its 8 times weaker, wich makes everybody feel that its useless passive, not worth getting even after 100lvls. One could say better anything then nothing, but i do not accept such excuse.

Another interesting thing is that Blazing Caligraphy state (+20% fire dmg per marked enemy KO) last forwever untill the end of the fight. I would like similar mechanic for Lone Sadida. It could be then capped at 140% instead of 150% and could increase by 20% per turn instead of 30% but would then last for the whole fight. In other words it would act as "slow start" for Sadidas. They are so lazy they need time to reach their full potential, unlike for example Rogue who get 140% dmg bonus from the very first turn. Don't you agree it would be nice and interesting mechanic if it would work togather with dolls (and without them too)? The dolls would be then used as obstacles to "buy time" for Sadida so it could reach max lvl of "Lone Sadida". I'd love that.

Sacrificing doll in order to get its cost back won't solve much as dolls simply doesn't deal enough dmg and doesn't survive long enough. They are usually getting KO'ed so sacrificing it to get AP would be useless then. I'd rather make dolls summoning cost = seed summoning cost. That would be enough really.

Simply put making each single target spell of Sadida refund full cost when Sadida cast it on seed (and don't heal nor dmg enemy or ally in the same time) would already improve Sadida gameplay a lot. It still won't let it counter dmg dealers as Sadida's own dmg is lame and it need "time to build up", wich would just require Sadida to have better defense but you don't want to ask for that much it seems...

I don't know about you but i can see a lot of flaws in Sadida. 1 Fix of 1 issue would make it better but won't make other issues dissapear. Better 1 change then none? Well for sure, but i'd say better full package of improvements or else we won't re-sub. At least i won't.

ALSO most important: the dolls are NOT meant to be sacrificial!!!! Who got you that idea? There's only 1 doll with suicidal wish - fire doll. All the other dolls are not meant to be sacrificials. Using dolly Sacrifice should therefore reward Sadida more then it currently is (more heal) and dolls should have higher durability. I don't mind if they deal low dmg - they are not reliable if they die so easily.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - December 06, 2013, 20:43:46.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 08, 2013, 00:38:03 | #17
I will address each one by the #

1. When I say refund ap used to cast the spell. I mean all of the ap, regardless of the spell used or the type of doll casted.

2. I suggested this because the devs and regular players have posted many times that doll costs will not be adjusted. The revamp trend seems to follow this because if they:

Lower the cost of dolls : They lower their effectiveness
Raise their effectiveness : They increase the cost

I am just trying to find some middle ground.

Personally I think that the effectiveness of dolls is fine. This is why I want to use them. [Which the exception of mp/ap dolls that build 80% hyper movement by turn two]

Side note on Hyper movement: In order to remove it you need to use Bramble on totem, which takes one turn to summon due to it's cost.The dolls take one turn to summon, but the dolls die in one turn and need to be recasted. In simple terms you never have the opportunity to set up for hyper movement removal because you need three turns to begin removing hyper movement, cost wise not effective and full turns go to waste because of expensive ap costs.

4-6 I agree with everything you said

End statement: I know I agree, but I know it is also not going to happen. I am just trying to find some common ground that encompasses what we want and what they want our class to be.

It's not perfect I know that, pretty sure some ideas could make it better and its ok to disagree. I just don't know what to do anymore. I've tried everything with my class and I only have one more build to try for which I need Dragon Pig gear or some other type of Op air/earth gear. I suggested this with lvl 200 in mind only as minor form of alleviation.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté December 08, 2013, 01:25:04 | #18
The main issue is not that it won't happen but the fact that it would take time in case they will change it.

Their priority is not rebalancing of Sadida. They might adjust dolls (and ovewrall all summons) instead before rebalancing Sadida - that i think is wrong way to go. Why? Becase they might make dolls better in terms of survival or dealt dmg but if the cost would be as high as it is then it would remain unbalanced with the osamodas summons, unless they will make osamodas summons 3 times weaker, wich i doubt they will as that would be ridiculous.

They simply cannot improve dolls and leave their cost unchanged.

In fact i think that dolls are ok as they are in terms of dealing dmg and effects.

The only issues are the cost to summonn dolls and lack of reliable Hypermovement/Hyperaction ability.

Wich is why i would suggest the single target spells of Sadida to refund all cost used to make doll in the first place, instead of implementing such mechanic to Dolly Sacrifice as it's the first turns that matter in wich we need more AP's in same time we summon the dolls. Other classes can dish out deal 1000~2000 dmg per turn - if thats the first turn, then even if the summoning cost of dolls would remain the same (4AP~9AP for 1 doll to be summoned) then Sadida will be left with either no AP or very low amount of AP and with Sadida's low dmg dealing spells Sadida simply won't stand a chance, even if Dolly Sacrifice would give back AP's to Sadida. Then again it would be too difficult to balance out your idea with ultrapowerful dolls as we can cast new poison spells on them every turn. If they would only refund first spell's AP's then it will be difficult to tell wich one was the first - its just technically complicated to program and therefore i doubt it would ever happen. And we would not need that.

Instead if summoning doll would cost as much as summoning seed (with single target spells of Sadida refunding all of AP and MP when cast on seed) then we would have dolls with cheap enough cost to be summoned and Sadida could use remaining AP's to either shield itself, heal self, buff dolls with Rust or push/pull or apply some poisons via dolls bodies, or even shield dolls - wich i bet every Earth sadida would love to be able to do effectively.

Then if each doll would cost as much as the seed, then Dolly Sacrifice could simply refund the cost of the seed when the doll is sacrificed - that would be easy to program and more likely to happen. However it would propably make Dolly Sacrifice not heal Sadida anymore. Though if it would still heal as low as it does now it would be proper change to make it give AP's back. Then again if it would itself cost 1 or more AP then the full cost won't be really given back. This lead to the conclusion that Dolly Sacrifice would need to cost 0AP and would obviously make this spell rather not heal Sadida at all. Now question is wich one would be better? Personally i think AP back would be nice to me as water Sadida (because i can heal myself with Mudoll) but then again the icon of the Dolly Sacrifice show heart going out of the doll - wich symbolizes life (aka healing - just look at healings spells of eniripsa).

Now the heal we get now is pathetic. What it have a base of 10 at level 100? Well something similar for sure. And what we use for that to get? Minimum 4AP to make doll + cost of Dolly Sacrifice - thats just not equal to the heal received.

Now if the doll would cost each 2AP (the cost the same as the seed) and if it would also give 2AP to Sadida if it sacrifice the doll - then the heal of 10 would like a heal free of cost (though the timer would make it not effective method to spam this).

I'd still like to see dolly sacrifice to heal the Sadida when used. Heal should be higher though. Cheap cost of summoning dolls would be enough for me and if dolly sacricice would cost 0AP when the heal should be equal to the heal of a spell that has the same cost as the seed. That's the most balanced solution i can think of. Yet again it does not mention any changes to the dolls themself (their stats). And that troubles me because the issues of Sadida won't be solved with "rebalancing of summons" that ankama might come up with.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-07-02
posté December 18, 2013, 10:00:25 | #19
Im sorry for replying so late. I've been trying to think of something meaningful to post for the past week. But I honestly havent come up with anything and I have to admit that otherwise I would be rude.

To be honest, I remember when this new sadi came out. I use to be all over the forums trying to advocate for the class, giving ideas that i hoped Ankama would take into consideration. But now, well I just know that's never going to happen. These guys are so full of themselves that they do not even answer back to emails in regard to misconduct via Ankama moderation, they don't answer to support, and I honestly don't see the point in even bothering to play this game anymore. This game shouldn't depress people the way it does and specifically this class.

Maybe sadis will see their glory someday, maybe the game would reach its potential I don't know. But right now Ankama clearly does not care, they have no sense of what customer service is. I also doubt they will make Sadida/revamp or re balance them to suit the needs of players. If anything they will re balance them to "what they want them to be" because as they said before they "are happy with the current Sadida" so they just don't care that we are not happy. Whats the point.

Excuse me Kikui, I know you work hard but I just don't share the same passion as you anymore. Or maybe its just today that has me feeling down. I will say that all the ideas are great, I think Ankama should take them into consideration.

I honestly think that if they make dolls cost less, then they will make dolls weaker. They have done this Over and Over and Over again since open beta. That is all they have done. That's the only reason why i suggested the passive. The fact that dolls need re balancing is complete given. Dolls must cost less, but their effectiveness should not be decreased.

Again I highly doubt this will happen.


This post has been edited by aquabeauty - December 18, 2013, 10:02:04.
Short Strich * Member Since 2010-12-17
posté December 20, 2013, 01:58:56 | #20
"We're going to let sadidas control dolls by the end of 2013"
I bet they will never add this or any changes to the class

adding more multiman for $20 each is more important.