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Doll sadi advice
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-12-22
posté February 02, 2014, 21:57:01 | #1
Doll sadi advice Heya there! I am making a doll sadi, and after giving it a bit of pondering, I still can't decide how to proceed, so let me ask more experienced ones, wich doll build is most fun and useful to play?

For now, my plan consist of going 10ap/5mp - tho in endgame I am considering 12ap one.
As for specialties, I'd choose Doll, Knowledge of Dolls, Voodoll, Sic em More and Lone Sadi (i plan to get some bonus before going pupeteer, am i thinking alright to assume bonus wont dissapear with dolls coming in play?) - considering getting em all around 100sh, wich is my current goal for this sadi.

As for spells and branch choosing... as I'm now I went all-out and took two skills of each branch:
Vaporize for control and Mudoll for some healing
Gust for some mob control and Sudden Chill as midd range attack
Bramble and Manifold Bramble.

It gives me offensive water and air dolls, support ap and mp ones and blocker to use.
Ap combination should work well with either 10 or 12 ap as its:
2+3
3+4
4+6

Also it covers fair range with base 0-5 + 2-4 losless
wich provides some variety in combat.

Any insights as to how to improve the build?


EDIT:
After thinking a little about playing Sadi I've decided to go Water/Earth, dropping Air.
The specs stay the same, and for spells I've got Mudoll/Drain and Tear from Water, having Vaporize and Gust as utility spells ;3


This post has been edited by KamiKumo - February 03, 2014, 10:09:19.
Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2012-08-08
posté February 03, 2014, 03:19:17 | #2
Well I've played an Earth Sadida since the beginning, so my play-style has always been a little light on Dolls, but I'll see what I can do!


Quote
For now, my plan consist of going 10ap/5mp - tho in endgame I am considering 12ap one.As for specialties, I'd choose Doll, Knowledge of Dolls, Voodoll, Sic em More and Lone Sadi (i plan to get some bonus before going pupeteer, am i thinking alright to assume bonus wont dissapear with dolls coming in play?) - considering getting em all around 100sh, wich is my current goal for this sadi.
Your specialties look pretty solid, but you are unfortunately mistaken about Lone Sadida. As soon as you place a seed on the map, the damage/heal bonus from Lone Sadida disappears. Ideally, you should decide whether or not to use Dolls at the beginning of a fight. Going solo and using Dolls requires a few turns to build up your strength, and that means you're much weaker than normal for a little while if you need to switch partway through.

I would still recommend leveling Lone Sadida though, as even if you plan to use Dolls a lot, there will be some situations where summoning dolls is unfeasible or even actively detrimental.


Quote
As for spells and branch choosing... as I'm now I went all-out and took two skills of each branch:Vaporize for control and Mudoll for some healingGust for some mob control and Sudden Chill as midd range attackBramble and Manifold Bramble.
Your choices for Earth are good, especially if you're using Earth for MP manipulation, but Water and Air are slightly less so.

For Water, Mudoll is an excellent choice, as it's our only healing spell that can be aimed freely and at ourselves. Heck, I've got it at max level for no other reason. Vaporize, however, is more unorthodox. At level 100, it will have a base damage of 24, which is is 120 damage a turn if you get your 10 AP. Which is, honestly, lackluster. Vaporize will control Dolls no matter what level it is, so there's no point in leveling it for that reason. If I were to choose, I'd probably select Sadida's Tear as a second Water spell. With 10 AP, it does slightly more damage (122) than Vaporize at level 100, but it really shines when the Voodoll in play. When a Voodoll's linked to someone, casting Sadida's Tear will either damage (if an enemy) or heal (if an ally) whoever's linked to it by about a third of Tear's base damage. So that 122 damage suddenly becomes 162 damage, or 122 damage to the targeted enemy and 40 heals to the linked ally. This does, however, have the weakness of requiring you to summon the Voodoll (meaning you can't get two Tears in on the first turn), it's functionally single target, and the higher AP cost makes you more vulnerable to AP loss. Personally though, I'd choose Tear.

Your choices for Air are kind of in the same boat. Sudden Chill is an awesome spell that your group will love you for casting (as long as the dolls you need to help you stack it* stay out of the way), but Gust is kind of like Vaporize, a utility spell that's generally used for it's effects rather than for damage. However, I play Earth and fiddle around with Water, but have very little practical experience with Air (I have an Air Sadida, but she's only level 50 and I barely remember to play her >_>), so no detailed analysis here. If you're set on the two spells per branch idea, then I think I'd pick Woodland Stench (for the damage) or Poisoned Wind (for the lulz) over Gust, but if you enjoy the lack of line of sight and set-in-stone range (which is a godsend when blinded), then by all means, choose Gust. Hopefully someone more experienced with Air can help you here.

*Sudden Chill stacks weirdly. It lasts until just before the turn of whoever last applied a stack, meaning that if you're by yourself, it will always wear off just before you're able to reapply it. You need a Doll (an Ultrapowerful, preferably, but any Doll with Sudden Chill cast on it can do in a pinch) to apply it after your turn is done. That way, it will wear off immediately before the Doll's turn, allowing you to reapply it before it wears off. Then the Doll applies it again on it's own turn, becoming the last to stack Sudden Chill. Rinse and repeat. Until the stack maxes out at -120% resists, at which point it resets on your turn. Because Sadidas can't have nice things, apparently.


Quote
It gives me offensive water and air dolls, support ap and mp ones and blocker to use.Ap combination should work well with either 10 or 12 ap as its:2+33+44+6Also it covers fair range with base 0-5 + 2-4 loslesswich provides some variety in combat.
I'm not quite sure what all those numbers are referring to (>_>) but 10 AP is indeed a good spot to be, or are least a decent one. At this point you can double summon most Dolls (and in the case of Greedies, Lethargics, and sometimes Madolls, double summon and Nettle them both with Sic 'Em More). However, if you want to make heavy use of Inflatables and Ultrapowerfuls, you'll need 12 AP to summon two at once. This is less of an issue with Inflatables, as they're among the beefiest of Dolls, but Ultrapowerfuls are notorious for how much they cost to set-up versus how quickly they die. If you're focusing on Dolls, the decision of whether or not to go 12 AP largely comes down to how much you plan to use those two.

That's that! I hope I managed to be helpful!


This post has been edited by Lethalen - February 03, 2014, 03:21:41.
Reason for edit : Clarifications
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-12-22
posté February 03, 2014, 09:11:10 | #3
Ah! Thanks a bunch ;3 I'll certainly will take your opinion in count while respecing the Sadi


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-05-12
posté February 03, 2014, 10:05:21 | #4
If you would play a summoner sadi i suggest you to go full water.

The air branch is a pain in the ass.
The earth branch as nothing to do with doll, as the summons work regardless of your earth damage.
Instead, for water your masteries apply to the doll. You need a good water damage bonus to get your greedies nearly useful. And you need an high value of bonus damage, because lone sadida bonus does not apply if you have a seed in game, because someone at the ankama decided that sadida must not play primary as summoners.

So, i suggest you to go mono water.
You would level Sadidas tear, Drain and Rust.
The specialties are doll, knowledge of dolls, green guard, sic em more, dolly sacrifice, voodoll and lone sadida.
Those last two will be useful when you'll understand that sadida cannot play as summoners and you'll wish to become nearly playable.
Tree use wakfu points, so as a summoner you cant use this skill.

For spell you should level sadida's tear, drain and rust.
10 ap should be fine, 12 are best.

Whit 10 ap your round will be: doll+doll+rust+sic em more
or doll+drain+drain
or rustx2
or totem+sadidas tear and sadida's tears x2

You can do, if well played, a base damage of 100 and have a doll at +100% damage and the other doll at +200% or heal a base of 110 (80 in cross). If your dolls survive your base damage will increase of +60 per turn and your heal of +30 per turn.

With 12 ap your round will be doll+doll+rust+sic em morex3
or doll+doll+drain+drain
or rustx2+ sic em morex2


I used to play as a sadi summoner for two months after the class revamp, but i have to say sadi summoner are useless. You do no damage at all, you need time to build up your doll play and you need the party to play along you, but the other class will usually see you as an indrance, cause your dolls limit the line of sight doing no damage or they just blow up in a iop explosion or by taking a tour on a rogue wall of fire. You could be a good healer if you have at least 3 doll in battle, thing that usually happen at the third round, when the battle is finished or your party is dead.
And you will not be of any use in the battle that matter, except for the black crow, were your seeds will shine as the cannon fodder they are.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-12-22
posté February 03, 2014, 10:38:00 | #5
So, basically as the Sadi are for now, summoner Sadi is unwanted thing?


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2008-07-24
posté February 06, 2014, 04:35:41 | #6

Quote (KamiKumo @ 03 February 2014 10:38) *
So, basically as the Sadi are for now, summoner Sadi is unwanted thing?
Kinda, yeah :/ The upside of being a summoner Sadi, is that you invested in water, and you possibly have pretty decent heals. Otherwise, Greedies and UPs like to block line of sight, and in most cases, people won't like that.

The only few exceptions I've encountered are when playing with Sacriers (They switch and move around using the dolls :3) and sometimes Srams who use them as escapes with Guile. Even then, they can even interrupt the backstabbing process, so you gotta be careful :/

So yeah, don't be spamming Greedies and Ultrapowerfuls in groups. Occasionally, Blocks can be useful, and Inflatables are always welcome :3 You still stay a summoner, but concentrate less on the offensive in groups :3

At the moment, I'm building my Sadi as an all purpose character. I'm going omni-element, and have points in voodoll, Doll and Lone Sadi (As well as Sac and knowledge). The omni-element is a personal choice, but as someone else mentioned, Lone Sadi is always a good choice. You aren't the best without dolls, but at least you can hold your own without them ^^


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2006-01-31
posté February 06, 2014, 11:48:37 | #7
I'm a level 130 Sadida, Water/Air 12AP build. If you're not a Water/Air Sadida, or if you're not 12ap, you might find limited information here that will benefit your playstyle.

Contrary to popular belief there is a place in groups for a summoner Sadida - not in Ultimate Bosses however, but that's what Lone Sadida and Voodoll is for. The key is to stay away from summoning:

The Lethargic & The Madoll
- Frail, get in the way, have little effect on a battle. Madoll is especially dumb to summon.
The Ultra Powerful - Expensive, requires control every turn. Has niche use against Hagen Daz, however.
The Sacrificed - Only use against Polar Cracklers. Return to seed form if your seed gets hit and the doll doesn't explode.

With these options out of the way you are left with The Greedy, The Inflatable, The Block and the seed itself.

I'm going to first assess each of these dolls on a base level and then give you some insight in how I use them when I party up with others. While I'm no expert, and also only one person, I still find that my guild more than tolerates the methods I use to put my dolls to work as it leaves them in strategically optimal positions the majority of the time, but this varies on a case by case basis, and sometimes the positioning is different based on enemy ability.

EG: I would never summon a Block or Greedy against a Ghoul, as they are hurt by heals and The Inflatable far outshines The Greedy in damage when facing Undead monsters if you don't need the Greedy's MP.

_______________________________________________________

The Greedy -
Pros:

  • Extremely cheap.
  • When nettled, can do a fair amount of damage and breaks mob's resists easily.
  • Automatically under your control when summoned
  • High MP
  • Behaves well when puffling

Cons:
  • Close Combat oriented
  • 0 Lock, 0 Dodge
  • If you're not careful, it will block lines of sight.

The Inflatable -
Pros:
  • The act of summoning this doll heals nearby allies in an AoE
  • If it heals twice, it pays for itself very visibly
  • Quite easy to predict

Cons:
  • Sometimes it will run into places where it can't reach the ideal targets
  • Occasionally behaves poorly when puffling, sometimes opting not to puffle at all.
  • When nettled, will often run away too much. Be sure to take control on Green Guard procs.

The Block -
Pros:

  • Can force enemies to skip their turns, especially when dual-summoned
  • Good at pulling allies out of lock, or pulling enemies away from allies
  • Can sometimes be used to reposition your own dolls
  • Behaves perfectly when puffling

Cons:
  • Low MP unless Nettled
  • Relies on a janky Lock/Dodge mechanic, but will be greatly improved once that's revamped.
  • Allies find it okay to AoE through him when he's locking down a particularly nasty mob...

_______________________________________________________

So You Think You Can Dolls

The Greedy, The Inflatable and The Block each fall into a specific category each, and what is fantastic is that you can summon one of each without having to gear into +Control at all. Furthermore, more than three dolls tends to start getting obnoxious. (I would know, I used to run 6 control...)

The Greedy falls into a distinct offensive space. With its high mobility and cheap cost, it's very easy to summon it, puffle 2x stench on it, Sic it if need be and then walk it up to an enemy to puffle & kick the enemy. This combo has intense amounts of range due to the Greedy's MP and will allow you to score finishing blows from pretty much anywhere on the map, enemy layout notwithstanding.

If you do not need to run it all the way out, I find it best to move it back to you to block the enemy's line of sight to you, and allowing you to re-puffle Woodland Stench onto it the next turn for it to behave of its own accord. It is usually well behaved.

The Inflatable falls into a distinct support space. It has low MP and a lot of dodge. When nettled, it can reach almost anybody to heal them, and when controlled, makes a nice range extension when puffling Woodland Stench. While it won't always puffle when AI controlled, it will always heal the lowest-HP% party member that it can reach, in about 99% of cases. This doll doesn't have much strategic capability but you can always puffle anything and control it to get what you need out of it. This doll helps tremendously in almost any PvE situation.

The Block falls into a distinct defensive space. It only has 1 MP but it can pull anything toward itself. By default it will only pull enemies, but when controlled you can pull anything you need to. Nettling this doll has fantastic results in addition to control and the fact that monsters will be forced to try to dodge means you can cost them entire turns with startlingly frequent occurrence. You can puffle this doll with anything and it'll work out just fine due to the complete lack of MP, but with Gust + Vaporise + Sic you can pull off maneuvers that people didn't think Sadidas could do. It also operates as a fantastic stench-based turret for when you're out of range or he's locking something down.

The Seed can prevent someone being pushed or shot, or simply detour enemies into having to dodge past your Block to get to you. It takes a lot of AI prediction to pull off well, however, and sometimes it'll just get hit.

_______________________________________________________

By defining each doll with a role you can make quicker decisions on what you need at the drop of a hat. Bear in mind that, while not summoning is an option, it completely deprives you of some of your most important assets - including the ability to Woodland Stench a single enemy 4 times via puffling (!!!), an omnipresent reach through Greedies or forcing enemies to attempt 70%-30% dodge rolls on their way to picking a bone with you. The passive healing an Inflatable provides can prove to be the difference between life and death, and your flexibility will allow you to fulfill most gameplay roles at mob-grinding level.

As a Water hybrid, you'll always be able to fulfill a healing role at almost any dungeon with one or two inflatables by your side.

There are combos I haven't yet discovered and I'm only using half the dolls I could be. Someday I'll find out a way to make The Lethargic not brutally terrible, or they'll patch The Ultra-Powerful to be less expensive or 100% air damage, in which case I'll start tooling around with it to see what I can come up with.


This post has been edited by Hudski - February 06, 2014, 12:08:25.
Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-10-15
posté February 06, 2014, 13:10:07 | #8

Quote (Hudski @ 06 February 2014 11:48) *
snip

+1

This is very well said and truly shows off some of what Sadidas can actually do with their dolls. The amount of combos a Summoner Sadida can do over a Lone Sadida Sadida is astonishing. I would also have to agree with the Lethargic and the Madoll having very limited uses (I personally never use them).

I'm a pure Water Sadida, and I used to never use Ultrapowerfuls outside of Hagen Daz as well. Over the past month, though, I have started using an Ultrapowerful with the Gust spell saved in most boss fights. I almost always go first thanks to my high Initiative, so with an Eni on the team, I can easily summon one on my first turn. This basically lets me have two gust spells for the price of 1 AP on the following turns, given that I keep Line of Sight. I'm amazed I didn't start using an Ultrapowerful sooner, because those extra gust spells have allowed me to help out my team way more then I normally would have.

The main use I get out of the Greedy in high level dungeons is for extending the range of my Gust spell. I have sent these things across an entire map with a Gust spell saved, just so I could free an Eni that was locked against a stabilized target (for example).

I'm also amazed at how few people out there know the power of a Block with a Gust spell saved on it. I have actually met Sadidas who wouldn't even think of using a Block to pull an ally into a different position, and are amazed when they see what I can do with those stupid Dolls, lol.

I'm not sure about hybrids, though, but I personally like having 5 control. Without being able to control them by default, I agree that having 6 Dolls run around can be very troublesome for your team. I feel so limited having 4 control, so I find 5 to be an optimal number. When you're just starting out and getting use to playing with Dolls, though, 3 - 4 Dolls is a good number to practice with. The trick is to try and make them as useful as possible, without interfering with your allies. Its more difficult then it sounds, though.

I think the most difficult part for people to wrap their heads around being a Summoner Sadida, is the fact that you spend most of your AP summoning 1 - 2 Dolls per turn. It feels weird for people to, for example, only summon two blocks, and then end your turn. Once you get used to it, however, you'll find that you can do things you would never dream of being able to do as a Lone Sadida user.

Over all, that was an excellent summary Hudski. I'm impressed that there are actually Sadidas out there like you. If only more people could see the potential of a Summoner Sadida.


This post has been edited by Moongrove89 - February 06, 2014, 13:17:54.
Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2006-01-31
posté February 06, 2014, 13:22:18 | #9
That's an interesting approach to the Ultra Powerful, and the idea of "getting two gusts for 1ap every turn" is putting quite a smile on my face. The only hangup I have about it is how truly expensive it is to summon and change its spell, but I'm glad you've said something to its merit.

Thank you for your input! Hopefully someone out there can justify Madoll & Lethargic  


Featherless Piwi * Member Since 2011-06-12
posté March 15, 2014, 21:06:11 | #10
@Hudski - That is a very well written guide about dolls. Makes me very glad that there are others out there who have figured out how to use this incredibly useful class. I myself *rarely* use dolls, with the exception of voodoll, but that is mainly due to the fact that I never solo. I tend to gather friends, and I find that on some fights, dolls are fun and give some options, but for the most part the blocking of LOS is such a pain. But it can be done, and thank you for proving that there is a way. I love this class, and I can't wait for the update coming on March 18th. Cause I'll be even better!

~Seniv