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Ecaflip Revamp
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté April 12, 2013, 13:55:52 | #41
I agree with you ZeraKoN, however i would say that water ecas actually have possibly the best tanking capabilities unless the enemy has insane resists.(before revamp)

Koryaze, even if you pull that off with the problems Th3g0ldf1sh described, that is sub par damage for a damage dealer with none of the life drain effects the branch is supposed to have.

Also hunter ends your turn.


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - April 12, 2013, 13:56:36.
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2010-01-10
posté April 12, 2013, 15:11:25 | #42

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 12 April 2013 13:55) *
I agree with you ZeraKoN, however i would say that water ecas actually have possibly the best tanking capabilities unless the enemy has insane resists.(before revamp)

Koryaze, even if you pull that off with the problems Th3g0ldf1sh described, that is sub par damage for a damage dealer with none of the life drain effects the branch is supposed to have.

Also hunter ends your turn.

I'm not sure how Up to Scratch works yet, but since it hits in a line, you could just Up to Scratch the other way resulting in a backstab. Of course this is disregarded if the skill works different.

As for damage, 198 base damage is just from the up to scratch. If you manage to to proc flea army from AoN, that's around a extra 20 damage approximately from a level 70-80 fleahopper, also that's where the heals come in.

Thanks for telling me hunter ends your turn, but you'll still be able to use it quite well, say you Up to Scratch 2 times and you're 2 or 3 cells away, you could craps to try proc some fleas and end with hunter. Level 70 hunter would be like 30 damage I'm guessing.

Crit hunter is quite impressive as well, but this is already a lot of damage tbh.

A level 100 all in with 10 AP is 110 with a 50% chance to hit again and can't hit in CC. Imo it's great damage for a water eca.

@ ZeraKon, I feel like you're putting water eca's down to much. Stop comparing yourself to all the other classes and play the style you love to play. Screw the people that don't invite you to groups, you don't need them. As for your healing spells reducing to 2/5 opposed to 3/5. The healing aspect is still, just not as much.


This post has been edited by Koryaze - April 12, 2013, 15:31:17.
Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2008-06-02
posté April 12, 2013, 15:38:15 | #43

Quote
@ ZeraKon, I feel like you're putting water eca's down to much. Stop comparing yourself to all the other classes and play the style you love to play. Screw the people that don't invite you to groups, you don't need them. As for your healing spells reducing to 2/5 opposed to 3/5. The healing aspect is still, just not as much.
Well, I try to not get sad but... I want to show everyone that Water Ecaflips are that good, but, it's hard when Ankama themselves don't help... =/ For example, I'm trying to join some Shhhdoku Master groups, but none of them are really interested on my skills (I already gave up on Excarnus and Moowolf - bye Bloodthirsty...).

I confess that many players already gave me a good feedback like "wow u never die!", "really good class for pvp!", "tanky!" but... they are far from being the majority and in most of cases, I'm just doing what some other class already do (ppl just get impress when I do because they see Water Ecaflips as a useless class. Is all about "too low expectation").

And btw, today's water ecaflip branch got 4 life-steal spells: Fleabag, Fleahopper, Flealove and Fleeches, not 3. It's going to reduce from 4/5 (80%) to 2/5 (40%).


This post has been edited by ZeraKoN - April 12, 2013, 15:41:55.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté April 12, 2013, 17:53:23 | #44

Quote (ZeraKoN @ 12 April 2013 15:38) *

Quote
@ ZeraKon, I feel like you're putting water eca's down to much. Stop comparing yourself to all the other classes and play the style you love to play. Screw the people that don't invite you to groups, you don't need them. As for your healing spells reducing to 2/5 opposed to 3/5. The healing aspect is still, just not as much.
Well, I try to not get sad but... I want to show everyone that Water Ecaflips are that good, but, it's hard when Ankama themselves don't help... =/ For example, I'm trying to join some Shhhdoku Master groups, but none of them are really interested on my skills (I already gave up on Excarnus and Moowolf - bye Bloodthirsty...).

I confess that many players already gave me a good feedback like "wow u never die!", "really good class for pvp!", "tanky!" but... they are far from being the majority and in most of cases, I'm just doing what some other class already do (ppl just get impress when I do because they see Water Ecaflips as a useless class. Is all about "too low expectation").

And btw, today's water ecaflip branch got 4 life-steal spells: Fleabag, Fleahopper, Flealove and Fleeches, not 3. It's going to reduce from 4/5 (80%) to 2/5 (40%).

Water Eca's may not be the most desirable class out there but that shouldn't stop friends taking you along for events. You would need a good group to tag along for Excarn and Moo. Excarn and Moo are both zerg fights, Moo zerg just starts at 2k HP. Water Eca is not a zerg class. However, the revamp should give you the option to deal more dmg for these fights now.

I'd actually enjoy a Water Eca for Shudo. I was planning to turn my Fire Eca into Water after revamp. I'm hesitant because the changes weren't everything i was hoping for. So I'll have to test it first. All you need for Shudo is a Tank, Eni, and two DPS. A map manipulator helps if you can get one. The remaining two classes can be weaker than a goldfish. They only need to reduce resists for your DPS. Having one of them off heal is fantastic. A Fire Eni has made the best choice when I can find one for my team.

IMO the biggest drawback to Water Eca is simple... Earth/Fire just look so good now.


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2011-12-08
posté April 12, 2013, 19:55:23 | #45

Quote (Gynrei @ 12 April 2013 17:53) *

Quote (ZeraKoN @ 12 April 2013 15:38) *

Quote
@ ZeraKon, I feel like you're putting water eca's down to much. Stop comparing yourself to all the other classes and play the style you love to play. Screw the people that don't invite you to groups, you don't need them. As for your healing spells reducing to 2/5 opposed to 3/5. The healing aspect is still, just not as much.
Well, I try to not get sad but... I want to show everyone that Water Ecaflips are that good, but, it's hard when Ankama themselves don't help... =/ For example, I'm trying to join some Shhhdoku Master groups, but none of them are really interested on my skills (I already gave up on Excarnus and Moowolf - bye Bloodthirsty...).

I confess that many players already gave me a good feedback like "wow u never die!", "really good class for pvp!", "tanky!" but... they are far from being the majority and in most of cases, I'm just doing what some other class already do (ppl just get impress when I do because they see Water Ecaflips as a useless class. Is all about "too low expectation").

And btw, today's water ecaflip branch got 4 life-steal spells: Fleabag, Fleahopper, Flealove and Fleeches, not 3. It's going to reduce from 4/5 (80%) to 2/5 (40%).

Water Eca's may not be the most desirable class out there but that shouldn't stop friends taking you along for events. You would need a good group to tag along for Excarn and Moo. Excarn and Moo are both zerg fights, Moo zerg just starts at 2k HP. Water Eca is not a zerg class. However, the revamp should give you the option to deal more dmg for these fights now.

I'd actually enjoy a Water Eca for Shudo. I was planning to turn my Fire Eca into Water after revamp. I'm hesitant because the changes weren't everything i was hoping for. So I'll have to test it first. All you need for Shudo is a Tank, Eni, and two DPS. A map manipulator helps if you can get one. The remaining two classes can be weaker than a goldfish. They only need to reduce resists for your DPS. Having one of them off heal is fantastic. A Fire Eni has made the best choice when I can find one for my team.

IMO the biggest drawback to Water Eca is simple... Earth/Fire just look so good now.

Hey now! You calling my Eca weak?

But yeah, water eca will need some testing to see how well it will do.

@Koryaze 2 Up To Scratch is still very unlikely. You are looking at using 1, (takes an MP) having to move 2 spaces away to set up another one (takes 2 MP) then using the second one (takes 1 MP) for some one with 6 MP, that only gives you 2 MP to set up. thus leaving you out of MP for using Hunter.


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2011-01-24
posté April 12, 2013, 20:35:48 | #46
I think the ideal build for a water eca will be 10/6 or 11/5 , well hell depending on the new gear maybe 11/6 or 12/5 will be doable.

11/6 would be what I would go for if that is going to be possible.

You can Up to scratch, Leap back walk to set up Up to Scratch again and Hunter for a purely damage dealing turn.

You can leap and 3x Fleahopper for heals.

Flea Love Up to Scratch and hunter

Let's hope 11/6 will be achievable!

not to mention on god card turn you will be 14/6 which will make for some crazy combos

3x fleahopper up to scratch hunter

Up to scratch leap 3 times Up to scratch

Really it all depends on how much Mp you have to use for set up but I see a lot of interesting deadly combos


The Sinister Six * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté April 12, 2013, 23:46:32 | #47

Quote (Koryaze @ 12 April 2013 05:19) *

Quote (axemangx @ 12 April 2013 03:33) *
Did we just forget that Precision got a 350% damage cut?

Even if we didn't hit precision, we would still be a lot stronger.

Say for example you get a positive card that's already +40%, say you get 10WS or 20WS, that's another 20%, or 40% of crit damage. Further more you can roll again giving you an extra 30% damage.
And leap giving 50% all damage is crazy.

We didn't always hit the 500% damage on precision anyway.

Cat is also situational and is much better than before. You could block LoS since you can control it now, if you're in a large map and you're starting far, you could rack up some WS by just summoning the cat and getting some crits off.

We're given so much more new options within the revamp.

That said, its not being blown out of proportion. These changes will make us so much better than we already are, and we're already great. (excluding water)
The cat is paper and only gives damage if you draw a good card.
Roll again is basically the same.
Leap change only really benefits you if you're Fire, Three Cards, or Water.
Paws honestly got nerfed
Cat tree is going to heal fucktons less but it's a tad more consistent.
Earth bases are still terrible
We still have a chance to do no damage at all.

All we really got was a bunch of quality of life changes and slight buffs to our viability. Seriously, you tell me if we were up-to-snuff for bosses like Magmog and Black Crow this patch. Compared to say, Cras or Osas? Or hell, even rogues. Of course not. I just never thought we were amazing before. More bare-bones if anything.


This post has been edited by axemangx - April 12, 2013, 23:48:27.
Short Strich * Member Since 2012-11-21
posté April 13, 2013, 05:36:35 | #48
I doubt earth ecas will ever be liked at UBs because of a potential tarot screwing up the run.

However, the sheer amount of damage multipliers with this patch is crazy. Properly geared earth ecas were already scary enough with their Battles always criting.

+30% from leap
+50% from cat
+50% from tarot

The cat and tarot bonuses only happen with a positive tarot but the draw chance is 50%. And with precision given an average damage buff, earth ecas are going to be always hitting at 600%+ earth, usually with crits. Not to mention chance of casting fleahopper for hp steal / even more crit %..

Fire kitties are meh, no real changes. Water in comparison seems pretty lackluster.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2010-01-10
posté April 13, 2013, 09:05:22 | #49

Quote (Wombatchicken @ 13 April 2013 05:36) *
I doubt earth ecas will ever be liked at UBs because of a potential tarot screwing up the run.

I'm liked at excarnus because of the amount of burst that I'm able to dish out in 1 turn or 2.

tarots has never been an issue for me.


The Sinister Six * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté April 13, 2013, 19:19:21 | #50
Excarnus isn't an UB. Let's be fair here.


Quote (Wombatchicken @ 13 April 2013 05:36) *
I doubt earth ecas will ever be liked at UBs because of a potential tarot screwing up the run.

However, the sheer amount of damage multipliers with this patch is crazy. Properly geared earth ecas were already scary enough with their Battles always criting.

+30% from leap
+50% from cat
+50% from tarot

The cat and tarot bonuses only happen with a positive tarot but the draw chance is 50%. And with precision given an average damage buff, earth ecas are going to be always hitting at 600%+ earth, usually with crits. Not to mention chance of casting fleahopper for hp steal / even more crit %..

Fire kitties are meh, no real changes. Water in comparison seems pretty lackluster.
Nobody really uses Fleahopper as earth, no offense.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2010-05-04
posté April 13, 2013, 19:31:40 | #51
My Tarot Eca gets taken to Magmog
Tarot doesnt screw up that much. +Damage is manageable, only the heal is annoying on those super high hp bosses.

The problem with Earth Eca ist our main spells dont have increased base damage when we crit (All In and Battle). So yes we will have a fuckton of +Damage, but our crits are pretty crappy already.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté April 14, 2013, 16:05:58 | #52
After looking it over and trying to form theoretical builds, earth just seems like the clear winner. Have you guys noticed three cards only costs 4 ap 1 wp and does 80 damage? that is nearly twice fires 4 ap spell. when you look at that, why the hell is flea love 6ap and no longer gives back wp?

Both water and fire seem pointless now earth has the most base damage and tonnes of other bonuses sprinkled throughout the class specialties. Fires passive is just as useful toe earth and water cant even make use of theirs without another element.

Well, at least we have hunter now.


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - April 14, 2013, 16:07:48.
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2010-01-10
posté April 14, 2013, 16:54:51 | #53

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 14 April 2013 16:05) *
After looking it over and trying to form theoretical builds, earth just seems like the clear winner. Have you guys noticed three cards only costs 4 ap 1 wp and does 80 damage? that is nearly twice fires 4 ap spell. when you look at that, why the hell is flea love 6ap and no longer gives back wp?

Both water and fire seem pointless now earth has the most base damage and tonnes of other bonuses sprinkled throughout the class specialties. Fires passive is just as useful toe earth and water cant even make use of theirs without another element.

Well, at least we have hunter now.

Have you even seen any pro fire eca's?

Not just level 110, but well geared and know what they are doing? They're good as well.

Base may be lower but fire eca's power comes from their crit. It's just personal preference which eca you choose.
Would you rather do 87 base dmg with battle and have the chance to heal the target or would you rather do 48 base damage but on crit 74 which isn't that hard and have around 16% for it to hit again?

As for 3 cards, we lose the ability to roll again freely and cat tree because you'd need to save your wp and when we do run out of wp were significantly weaker.

Fire eca's also have Die Alright which is pretty sweet, reaching around 800+ damage on crit and rebounds, so don't sell fire eca's short now.


This post has been edited by Koryaze - April 14, 2013, 17:08:41.
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2010-05-04
posté April 14, 2013, 17:07:19 | #54

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 14 April 2013 16:05) *
After looking it over and trying to form theoretical builds, earth just seems like the clear winner. Have you guys noticed three cards only costs 4 ap 1 wp and does 80 damage? that is nearly twice fires 4 ap spell. when you look at that, why the hell is flea love 6ap and no longer gives back wp?

Both water and fire seem pointless now earth has the most base damage and tonnes of other bonuses sprinkled throughout the class specialties. Fires passive is just as useful toe earth and water cant even make use of theirs without another element.

Well, at least we have hunter now.

If we are just talking about base damage. You realised Roulette costs 5 AP and does 120 Damage in an AOE.

That being said. 3 cards is crap. It takes the valuable WP the Eca usually needs for other stuff and if you make a low ap cost and wp cost your main spell, it just will just be useable for the first 3 turns and then you're left with your other lower leveled ones.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté April 14, 2013, 23:06:05 | #55
Battle and all in have similar damage output chrolo, also that 5 ap spell gets no extra damage from crits, cant double or quits and can hit you(i think they are changing that part)

Koryaze you seem to be under the imprssion earth doesnt beneft from critical hits, also fire is 40 and 44 base damage. vs 80 damage spells(i was clearly wrong here). earth spells actually benefit more from crits than fire as the have secondary effects on crit.

Fire atm boils down to die alright double or quits and craps, yes die alright is pretty good but is much less effective than two earth spells. especially considering all the extra earth damage from specialties now.

Edit: i will admit water looks alot more fun compared to earth and fire, which almost all attacks are mid range single target attacks.


This post has been edited by HakazabaJub - April 15, 2013, 05:34:59.
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2010-05-04
posté April 15, 2013, 04:28:22 | #56

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 14 April 2013 23:06) *
Battle and all in have similar damage output chrolo, also that 5 ap spell gets no extra damage from crits, cant double or quits and can hit you(i think they are changing that part)

Koryaze you seem to be under the imprssion earth doesnt beneft from critical hits, also fire is 40 and 44 base damage. vs 80 damage spells. earth spells actually benefit more from crits than fire as the have secondary effects on crit.

Fire atm boils down to die alright double or quits and craps, yes die alright is pretty good but is much less effective than two earth spells. especially considering all the extra earth damage from specialties now.

Edit: i will admit water looks alot more fun compared to earth and fire, which almost all attacks are mid range single target attacks.
All In and Battle get no extra damage from crits either.


What secondary effects? Making them reliable (thats not even true for All In)?

Battle is great, i know that. Having 86 base damage for 4 ap 1 mp is awesome. But on non-crits you have a 33% chance to fail. Making it more like 57 base damage on average (not counting the possible heal).
So its 57 vs 48 while costing 1 more MP.
D-6 also has the small chance to do double or triple damage or more but thats unlikely.

All In is also... well if you use it with 10 AP you got a 50% chance for 22 base damage per AP. So it boils down to 16,5 damage per AP and it gets lower the less AP you use for your All In.


This post has been edited by Chrolo - April 15, 2013, 04:29:29.
Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté April 15, 2013, 05:31:49 | #57
Your right, i wasn't paying close enough attention to battles crits i think ive just been conflating the god ecaflip bonus with crits or something. However if you crit all in with 10 ap the chance is 100% for double damage.

Ok, so it and fire are pretty balanced as far as base damage goes with earth still being a little bit better. However you still need to take about an extra 150% earth damage into account from the passives.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2010-01-10
posté April 15, 2013, 07:21:31 | #58

Quote (HakazabaJub @ 15 April 2013 05:31) *
However if you crit all in with 10 ap the chance is 100% for double damage.

Max chance to 2x hit is 50%, its said in the description of all in.

Earth eca's are only going to get 40% stronger with the earth damage from tarots, not including black meow.
Every other spec is shared damage for all elements. And this is only on a positive card, so that's at a 50% chance.


This post has been edited by Koryaze - April 15, 2013, 08:00:46.
Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2008-06-02
posté April 15, 2013, 13:50:56 | #59
Well, imo, earth wasn't needing THAT much of a boost, they were a good DD already, capable of dealing around 1,2k/turn without brain damage... I've fight many earth ecas, and most of them deals a hell lot of scary damage...

I've seen a lot of fire ecas too, not so much damage in a single attack as Earth's but, the amount of attacks they deal approach to the final dmg output.

If Earth of Fire needed a boost, was just to get closer to other high DD classes from the game, if they were compared to the other Ecaflip branches, no boost was needed.

Like Music once said to me, a fight between 2 Ecas (Earth vs Fire) never ends the same. Is all about luck... They were "balanced" between each other.

I see 2 main problems on Eca's class with tomorrow's update:

1- Earth is getting a senseless buff.
2- After a whole year, Water is getting no buffs, just a lot of changes that still makes them useless.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2011-08-23
posté April 15, 2013, 14:49:00 | #60
I don't think the earth damage buffs are as huge as people are making out, for starters all of it is only half of the time unless your using wp to force it, so it's only boosting it by 20% on average. The extra 50% off of bow meow is nice but the same positive card only problem applies to this too, as well as the issues of being anchored in AoE range of a ~250hp summon that only has 4mp with no leap, hunter, up to scratch or cat tree for keeping up with the eca. Against anything cowardly, the cat simply wont work.

When I first saw the changes I was a bit worried and considered ditching fire, but after looking more closely I don't think that earth will become vastly superior to fire, fire will still be lower single target damage and less extreme on lucky turns, but higher multi target damage and more reliable, with the winning streak buffs making Die Alright even more stupidly good than it already is when it has AoEs.

Water is an issue when compared to fire and earth, or to other classes, however before all they could do is self heal while dealing a small amount of damage, now they have the options of situational team healing, self healing or damaging by an amount that is near to what earth and fire do on average. I think this makes them a lot more versatile and useful once they reach the front lines, the main problem being all these stupid MP costs that slows them both in getting there initially and in being mobile when they are there. I don't really understand how they think that mp costs on everything means that the tree is either mobile or good at running away and escaping, but oh well.