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Let's Talk Tarot
The Sinister Six * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté September 19, 2013, 06:20:06 | #1
Let's Talk Tarot No secret many consider it more of a hinderance than a benefit half the time.

Especially on UBs or High health bosses when you pull Croquette and heal them for 600.

What can be done to fix this?


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2013-06-24
posté September 19, 2013, 06:59:04 | #2
Don't take the skill if you don't like it.

It has a lot of benefits as well. You win most, you lose some. Roll with the punches.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2006-05-01
posté September 19, 2013, 07:08:39 | #3
If you max it out, you end up with more favorable results than negative results. I think that about says it all, as far as I'm concerned.


Fansite Operator * Member Since 2012-01-31
posté September 23, 2013, 11:52:50 | #4
I get the feeling the above people don't quite get the complaint.

Tarot is fine as a whole. It's the Croquette card in particular that presents a problem in the endgame, where with Ultimate Bosses like Magmog for example, it heals 600+ hp, in most cases effectively undoing a large part of a turn's work and pissing your teammates off.

I think the best solution would be giving it a cap of some sort, honestly, for the players as well as monsters. Still not perfect, but it would at least lessen the blow?

I remember posting a complaint back when invis srams were still common (and croquette could reveal allies mid-fight) that I don't mind dealing with being a gambling class, but my group really shouldn't have to. That applies in this situation too.

Just my two cents.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2013-06-24
posté September 23, 2013, 12:11:02 | #5
I've healed magmog for 600. It does not happen often. As a group you just take that risk by taking an Ecaflip.

I don't hear the group complaining when you buff your team with 1- 50% damage. Or get a godcard and deal massive damage on an UB.

For balance sake, there should be something of a cap on it, i do agree with that. It just scales too nicely on UB's with a lot of HP.


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2011-11-07
posté September 23, 2013, 12:46:55 | #6
I'm still a lower level Ecaflip with no Magmog experience, but is healing 600+ that much of a hindrance? It does seem rather low if I read those damage outputs on those levels... Correct me if I'm wrong.

but I must admit that I like that unexpected aspect of our pussycat gamblers. Doesn't make them team players, that's true


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2013-06-24
posté September 23, 2013, 13:02:45 | #7
Magmog has a built-in enrage timer. Groups with low damage can die because of that 600hp difference.


Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2011-11-11
posté September 24, 2013, 18:30:08 | #8

Quote (GrimackReapum @ 23 September 2013 12:46) *
I'm still a lower level Ecaflip with no Magmog experience, but is healing 600+ that much of a hindrance? It does seem rather low if I read those damage outputs on those levels... Correct me if I'm wrong.

but I must admit that I like that unexpected aspect of our pussycat gamblers. Doesn't make them team players, that's true
It is a bit of a hindrance. Ecaflips do provide some nice group buffs, but they come with a risk. Healing for 600 hp to Magmog is an entire turn worth of Dmg from a single player given back as HP. If you have a group with low DPT, 600hp could be a bit of a burden.

Now, a cap is definitely needed, why? because that heal considers a % of the total hp of a Target. Magmog may not be a "OMGAWD NO ECAFLIPS ALLOWED" type of thing as it only has 12000 hp. So it's tolerable. I take my Ecaflip to magmog every week, so the heal isn't a problem for us.

But an Ecaflip with tarots cannot encounter DP in it's current stage, as people are developing strategies for it. DP does have 20,000hp and it can receive a heal of 1000. That's 3 turns worth of TOTAL dmg done by the entire team given back as HP in the first stage. It could be also be burdensome in the other stages.

The dmg done by Ecaflips sure is awesome, and it could aid a fight in many ways, but croquette needs some nerfing; either make it a fixed heal, or drop the % at which it heals.

-Faded


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2012-01-16
posté September 24, 2013, 23:03:04 | #9
Easy change:

Everyone heals for 5% of the Ecaflip's max HP

As opposed to everyone heals for 5% of their own hp.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2010-01-10
posté October 04, 2013, 03:44:19 | #10
I actually want to confirm something that has been on my mind for awhile with tarots.

Say on your first turn there is a 50% positive, 20% neutral and 30% negative card and you draw a positive.

Since you cannot draw the same card twice would that increase the percentage of getting another positive card since there are 9 cards to choose from and you're still at 50% chance to draw positive or does it decided between positive, negative or neural first, ignoring how many cards are left.

Math:
First turn: Positive = 0.5/(4/10) = 12.5% x 4 = 50%
Negative = 0.3/(4/10) = 7.5% x4 = 30%
Neutral = 0.2/(2/10) = 10% = 20%

Positive, Negative or Neutral card is drawn

Second turn: Positive = 0.5/(3/9) = 16.67% x 3 = 50%
Negative = 0.3/(3/9) = 10% x 3 = 30%
Neutral = 0.2/(1/9) = 22.22% x 1 = 22.22% (@_@?) help!

I'm bad at math, so correct me if I'm wrong and some confirmation would be good.

- Music


This post has been edited by Koryaze - October 04, 2013, 03:44:49.
Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2013-07-13
posté October 09, 2013, 11:44:48 | #11

Quote (Koryaze @ 04 October 2013 03:44) *
Math:
First turn: Positive = 0.5/(4/10) = 12.5% x 4 = 50%
Negative = 0.3/(4/10) = 7.5% x4 = 30%
Neutral = 0.2/(2/10) = 10% = 20%

Positive, Negative or Neutral card is drawn

Second turn: Positive = 0.5/(3/9) = 16.67% x 3 = 50%
Negative = 0.3/(3/9) = 10% x 3 = 30%
Neutral = 0.2/(1/9) = 22.22% x 1 = 22.22% (@_@?) help!

I'm bad at math, so correct me if I'm wrong and some confirmation would be good.

- Music

I logged off in the Restat Room, so I can test this out whenever Nox is back online


editedit: Did 100 turns and the experimental data went like this

First Turn
Positive: 51.5%
Negative: 25.6%
Neutral: 22.9

Second Turn(Rerolled if I earned a positive at the beginning of the turn):
Positive: 53.0%
Negative: 24.78%
Neutral: 22.2%

Hope that helps a little


This post has been edited by Lofty - October 10, 2013, 02:54:59.
Reason for edit : DATA
posté March 13, 2014, 23:12:23 | #12

Quote (Sokoshouri @ 24 September 2013 23:03) *
Easy change:

Everyone heals for 5% of the Ecaflip's max HP

As opposed to everyone heals for 5% of their own hp.
i like this idea but i feel that for balances sake it should be 1d20% of ecaflips max health (at max lvl at least. i don't remember how croquette scales anymore) that way at lvl 100 you'll have around 1200 hp (providing you have halfway decent gear) and as such you'll have a heal range of 12-240 for everyone on the map with an average of somewhere around the 70-100 range hopefully.

my main complaint with the tarot ability is the fact that in its current form croquette acts more like a negative card than the neutral i believe its classified as since so often you face boss monsters with much higher hp than anyone in your group.


The Sinister Six * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté April 17, 2014, 03:29:20 | #13

Quote (pieofpluss1doomness @ 13 March 2014 23:12) *

Quote (Sokoshouri @ 24 September 2013 23:03) *
Easy change:

Everyone heals for 5% of the Ecaflip's max HP

As opposed to everyone heals for 5% of their own hp.
i like this idea but i feel that for balances sake it should be 1d20% of ecaflips max health (at max lvl at least. i don't remember how croquette scales anymore) that way at lvl 100 you'll have around 1200 hp (providing you have halfway decent gear) and as such you'll have a heal range of 12-240 for everyone on the map with an average of somewhere around the 70-100 range hopefully.

my main complaint with the tarot ability is the fact that in its current form croquette acts more like a negative card than the neutral i believe its classified as since so often you face boss monsters with much higher hp than anyone in your group.
Finally got changed, alot less relevant now.

Still, the heal is a huge annoyance regardless.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté April 17, 2014, 17:50:15 | #14
Even after the fix as a non earth Eca I dislike Tarot. The advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages imo.

While +3ap or more dmg/crits is nice the -mp is a pain especially when it causes me to not reach my intended target. Even Kitzikaze blocks your way at times.


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2014-04-07
posté April 17, 2014, 17:59:38 | #15
It would be nice if roll again cleared the effect of the previous card for every card and not just some of them, particularly for mp loss and ougi crawlies.


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2011-08-02
posté April 17, 2014, 18:06:45 | #16
Yes, that could be an ecaflip bug. Roll again does not clear ouginak-crawlies. I am taking a lot of damage when my D-Six got lucky and deal consecutive 2-3 rolls.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté April 17, 2014, 18:50:52 | #17
D6 is so much fun. Any mention of it gives me a smile.


Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2011-11-11
posté April 18, 2014, 17:18:39 | #18

Quote (Gynrei @ 17 April 2014 18:50) *
D6 is so much fun. Any mention of it gives me a smile.
Haha, It's one of my favorites spells in the game  


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté April 19, 2014, 09:52:17 | #19
Making tarot not a passive but active speciality (merged with Roll Again, with cost of 0 and 2 use per turn) would fix your problems as in Ub fights you will simply not use it if you wouldn't want the risk. And we would get 1 slot free for new passive. Though i have no idea what that passive could be.


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2011-06-12
posté April 19, 2014, 12:54:22 | #20
Except a lot of people like tarot how it is, I don't want to have to use roll again all the time just to get cards. If you don't like it you don't have to level it, its pretty simple.