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Enutrof's Pouch, does anyone know how it works?
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2005-10-18
posté May 02, 2013, 14:37:23 | #1
Enutrof's Pouch So there are a lot of myths floating around about how enutrof's pouch, and I want to separate fact from fiction, so I can make the correct choices about what to do with my pouches! Here are a few statements, some of which may be correct, some incorrect...

- The pp of the character collecting the pouch affects the drop (enus will agree that when other people pick up the pouch it is often the pp candy).
- (alternatively) The drop is already decided before the pouch is popped.
- Purging the pouch doubles the chance to get a rare item (what does this mean? If I am farming keys, 5% drop rate, should I purge my pouch?).

and ultimately I want to understand how on earth the completely separate drop rates, on items that can all be dropped at once, is converted into some sort of continuous drop rate in the pouch, as it can only give one item out.

I am led to believe that Hush has posted something about this on the french forums recently, although I wasn't able to find the thread when I looked myself.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté May 02, 2013, 15:45:40 | #2
all evidence is anecdotal,

but the fact that non-pp characters grabbing pouch almost always get candy seem to indicate yes there is a pp roll when you pickup the pouch, not when you create it.

there is no convincing evidence that purging improves the items within. What most people see with this is likely selection bias, where they remember the big "hits" and forget the misses. I get big hits occasionally and I don't purge, but it would take rigorous statistical analysis in a controlled environment to ferret out if this is true. rigorous pouching and purging of something with a very limited drop table.

as for the last part, i am curious myself.


This post has been edited by BrainInAJar - May 02, 2013, 15:46:22.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-12-14
posté May 02, 2013, 15:52:24 | #3
The item from the pouch is determined upon pickup. When you pick up a pouch, each item dropped by the mob is tested in reverse order. You can find the order of a mob's drop list in the encyclopedia. If you fail to obtain a particular item, the next item is rolled, etc. Failing to obtain all items in the drop list will result in obtaining an Enutrof's prospecting candy. All normal prospecting rules apply, including prospecting locks, except that pouching has no effect at all on the availability of the mob's drops. The pouched item is simply added to your inventory provided that you win the fight. Successfully purging the pouch into a big bag doubles the base probabilities of all items in the drop list. When a bag a destroyed, for example due to something walking over it, it does damage close combat range equal to the level of the item that was destroyed.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté May 02, 2013, 16:00:36 | #4

Quote (Pimento2 @ 02 May 2013 15:52) *
The item from the pouch is determined upon pickup. When you pick up a pouch, each item dropped by the mob is tested in reverse order. You can find the order of a mob's drop list in the encyclopedia. If you fail to obtain a particular item, the next item is rolled, etc. Failing to obtain all items in the drop list will result in obtaining an Enutrof's prospecting candy. All normal prospecting rules apply, including prospecting locks, except that pouching has no effect at all on the availability of the mob's drops. The pouched item is simply added to your inventory provided that you win the fight. Successfully purging the pouch into a big bag doubles the base probabilities of all items in the drop list. When a bag a destroyed, for example due to something walking over it, it does damage close combat range equal to the level of the item that was destroyed.


This is very useful information if it's correct. Any way to verify this?


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2005-07-29
posté May 02, 2013, 16:02:33 | #5
It was, as usual, posted somewhere on the French forums. I'm sure someone will link it soon.


Mister Winter Fashion Victim 2012 * Member Since 2012-12-16
posté May 02, 2013, 19:16:24 | #6
I can't retrieve the link at this time, however I can confirm that in a several page long Enutrof thread on the French forums, an assistant CM verified the effects of using Purge on the bag doubling roll chances.

• Mango


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2006-05-01
posté May 02, 2013, 19:31:32 | #7
Damn looks like I'mma be purging my buttocks off on my Enutrof. Yea gods....


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté May 02, 2013, 21:27:22 | #8
its too bad one must sacifice statted mps and range to stat crit to minimize pouch loss.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté May 02, 2013, 21:29:02 | #9
As happy as I am to have the information, I hate feeling obligated to play an Enu. It's hard to ignore the advantages in drops they provide.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté May 02, 2013, 22:23:14 | #10
so a cursory look at probabilities shows that purging is better than not, even with no crit.

take for example an item with a .3% drop rate. a big bag makes that .6%. even at 0 pp the final drop probability is .75%*.6% = .45% which beats the original 3% (the .75% is the non crit chance of the thing not popping)

every point of crit adds 1/20th the original drop rate to the final probability, so in the above example 10 crit would bring .45% up to .465. 42% crit would bring this to 1.539

then +100 pp would double that to 2.78%
+200pp would make it 4.617%

as opposed to the no purge option which would have the item be:
0 pp : .3%
100 pp: .6%
200 pp: .9%

the downside being that if you fail the purge you dont get anything at all.

as an enu its not hard to break 200 pp in pretty easy to acquire gear, with 20 pp (and another 22 statted at the cost of mp and range) you can reach it with this set and a duck:
click me

(also it occurs to me that if the pouch bursts one shouldnt lament the high level items shown in damage, because the pseudo-random roll for the item at time of purge is seeded by a different number than the pseudo-random number at time of potential pickup, which means even if it was the item you wanted when it popped, it doesn't mean you would have gotten it if you instead picked it up.)


This post has been edited by BrainInAJar - May 02, 2013, 23:39:46.
Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2012-09-12
posté May 03, 2013, 06:59:00 | #11
whatever it says in the french forums is bunk.

I've been testing against the boohemoth family with 200 pp (stacking a little more) and purging the bags. the last item in their drop table to be tested against is a hair-feather of the snow at 25%. in a purged bag this would be 50% and with 200+ pp it would be over 100% so I should never get enutrophs candy from a purged bag....

but I did. so, if it is supposed to double the base drop rate, it does not.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté May 03, 2013, 17:00:14 | #12

Quote (BrainIsAjar @ 03 May 2013 06:59) *
whatever it says in the french forums is bunk.

I've been testing against the boohemoth family with 200 pp (stacking a little more) and purging the bags. the last item in their drop table to be tested against is a hair-feather of the snow at 25%. in a purged bag this would be 50% and with 200+ pp it would be over 100% so I should never get enutrophs candy from a purged bag....

but I did. so, if it is supposed to double the base drop rate, it does not.

It could be additive, not multiplicative. so 200 PP would place you at exactly 100% for the hair. If the base PP is in fact doubled and then the PP bonus is applied to that value... Purging will become necessary for every party. It also means letting the Enu grab everything, getting all the loot. I hope he's a generous person.

Did you pick up the bags? or the drheller? or a mine? It's entirely possible the drheller/mine pickup doesn't include you PP bonus. Or, there is a cap on drop rates. Was the PP candy a rare occurrence? Did you gather a ton of keys this way?

I need to play around with picking up bags with the highest level PP person in our party. That, or someone else needs to bring their Eni so I can play my Enu


This post has been edited by Gynrei - May 03, 2013, 17:01:04.
Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2012-09-12
posté May 03, 2013, 20:59:13 | #13
was a mine throw on this one.

i didnt get tons of keys, i got one pair of boots, one key and a lot of hair feathers. anecdotally not different from before i was purging.

we already know pp stat is not additive. ive had alma pp bonus and enough gear to get 300pp on my cra, and got a royal wool every time from royal gobb. every single time over 50 runs.

this is expected.

it is completely disproven to me, the thing about doubling the base drop rate. or if it is supposed to work this way it is broken. if it was so hair feather would be 100% at 200pp, and it is not.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2011-09-30
posté June 17, 2013, 12:25:07 | #14
My 5 cents. Old info, but i've never heard something changed from that time. Still, who knows.


Quote
Hey, I don't have to be a Developer to explain the process of the way pouches work (not to sound sardonic, I'm trying to present any scrap of merit as a non-official).

When you pick up a pouch, you roll for each item in the enemy's drop table backwards starting from rarest. Meaning, when you pouch a Standard Bearer Whisperer for example, when you pick up the pouch the game will first test to see if you will receive a Whisperer Breastplate. If you fail the roll, you will continue rolling to attempt to obtain each item, until you fail all of the drops in which case you receive an Enutrof Prospecting Candy.

When you Purge a bag, you run the risk of breaking it (25% of the time) in return for doubling the drop rates within the pouch (100% chance yield). Meaning now, when you test the roll for an item, you'll be twice as likely to obtain something of value.

Keep in mind, for someone farming materials this is a bad thing. If you, for example, are trying to farm Cloudy Cotton from the Celestial Gobball, using Purge on the pouch will make you more likely to obtain a rarer item from the drop table, like Infernal equipment.The person who picks up the pouch - their prospecting affects the item yield test. So generally you want an Enutrof to get the bag. This also usually means you'll want to get your Treasure Tracker maxed for the fight before picking up the pouch if possible.Take my word for what you will.

This is what an assistant CM posted on the French end, and so far I have found it to be true.

When our Enutrof uses Purge on their pouches, they almost always get an actual piece of equipment pending they are the ones who pick it up.

I am not sure if the Drheller gets the players' Prospecting. I believe they do though, given how when you use Collection with a Drheller the Enutrof does the pick-up animation.



This post has been edited by Nufeen - June 18, 2013, 10:52:42.
Soft Crackler * Member Since 2012-02-29
posté July 29, 2013, 17:45:38 | #15
I have a question about pouches.

Let's say boss X has a 0.3% item. If you purge the pouch, the rate then becomes 0.6% then?

Does your pp multiply your chances on the pouch? For instance if I have 400 pp, does that 0.6% become 2.4%?


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté July 29, 2013, 20:41:34 | #16

Quote (Noobility @ 29 July 2013 17:45) *
I have a question about pouches.

Let's say boss X has a 0.3% item. If you purge the pouch, the rate then becomes 0.6% then?

Does your pp multiply your chances on the pouch? For instance if I have 400 pp, does that 0.6% become 2.4%?
As purge data collected and reported in another thread, purge appears top be broken, so it does not double your base drop as reported in French forums. It appears to have no effect on drop rates.

As for pp, yes it effects pouch drop rates in the same way it effects normal drop rates except pouch drops are rolled rarest to most common, such that the first item you win is the one you get. If you fail them all the result is candy. Whereas normal drops are ruled in parallel to each other.

Also to make a .6 into 2.4 you would need a pp bonus of 400, not to be confused with the base 100 pp + a 300pp bonus.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté July 29, 2013, 20:50:12 | #17
I hate that hidden 100pp. It makes everything that much more annoying to talk about  


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2012-02-29
posté July 31, 2013, 01:14:40 | #18
Thanks for answering. So purging pouches is broken? That's unfortunate :O

As for the pp, for instance 100 (hidden pp) + 200 pp (gear) + 100 pp (mine) would multiply drop rates by 3x and not 4x?


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2012-06-02
posté July 31, 2013, 17:25:11 | #19
I might habe explained it wrong above. Its (original drop rate)x(total pp/100) so hidden 100 + 300 bonus should give x4. Idk what i was thinking in my prior post.