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[Suggestion to Revamp Enutrofs]
Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2008-05-13
posté June 03, 2013, 21:37:35 | #1
[Suggestion to Revamp Enutrofs] Hello everyone! I'm here with several suggestions to make Enutrofs more flexible and give them more thought to be played. Currently the builds that require most brain work is fire, the other two have a gameplay that require so simple tactics that even Iops need more strategy to be played!




 


This post has been edited by Niddhoggy - June 19, 2013, 17:13:42.
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2006-10-24
posté June 04, 2013, 00:37:31 | #2
That's certainly legible.


Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté June 04, 2013, 02:04:52 | #3
I didn't fully read your pdf, partly because it's so small I can't see, but also because you're way off on everything in that original paragraph.

Enutrofs have gotten a strong revamp in the past, and it fixed nearly every problem with them. There's little left to even do. Mass Clumsiness and God Enutrof's Blessing are the only skills that need changing.

Enutrofs DO have a specific role in PvE: Fire is Strong AoE at a remarkable range, Water is Strong single target ranged damage with bonus drops, and Earth is an absurdly powerful single target CC damage dealer with high mobility. Earth Enutrof is a crazy powerhouse, and currently the highest single target damage dealer in the game, while sporting a self-res, with high mobility, with optional MP drain.

Enus are one of the best classes to be in the game right now. They are really not in need of any sort of major change.


This post has been edited by Icekin - June 04, 2013, 02:08:03.
Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2011-03-05
posté June 04, 2013, 04:07:49 | #4
interesting... u think expect they feedback...


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté June 04, 2013, 17:29:52 | #5
Sorry, i don't download anything I don't know about so I have not looked at the PDF.

Enu has had plenty of attention. Just recently the passives have been completely reworked. Mine effects adjusted and drheller abilities improved. I don't play my Enu for drops. I rarely even build PP from mines. I just kill things dead.

Water Enutrof's role IS dropping pouches. Anything more is too good. They also deal nice damage in the process.

Fire has one of the best AoE's in the game. 15.5 dmg/ap, extendable range, 9 cell AoE, and no LoS required.

Earth is awesome. It hits hard and fast. It can also move around the map at will.

Conclusion, an Enu's niche is gathering loot. Ankama has provided some good ways to choose another path if you desire. Enu is a very balanced class, and OP in some situations. It's also quite capable of multi element builds. Why mess with this?

Edit: Most people I hear having issues with Enutrof only play one way. They are paper thin, PP stacking water builds. They add very little to a party. Their main function is getting themselves drops. 


This post has been edited by Gynrei - June 04, 2013, 17:33:05.
Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2008-05-13
posté June 04, 2013, 18:18:31 | #6
Sorry but I was actually in a rush and I couldn't change the post in time.
I'm posting a Scribid uploaded PDF so you guys won't have to download it.



Nevermind! Still need to find a decent place to upload it without the need of download, Scribd is reckoned as dangerous I don't know why!

Please, share your thoughts. Obviously there are things that have to be reworked somehow, so please give your feedback! 


This post has been edited by Niddhoggy - June 04, 2013, 18:24:41.
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2006-10-24
posté June 05, 2013, 01:47:24 | #7
I disagree with everyone in this thread re: Earth Enutrof.

I find them to be shadows of their former selves and very flat and uninteresting to play.

I played an Earth Enutrof since Timekeeper was nerfed.

First of all, all the skills do the same thing in Drhellzerker mode. Why is Hypermovement reduction even necessary? It's not convenient to constantly swap between Human and Zerker mode, so the only time it would be useful is if you happen to be on a team with ANOTHER Earth Enu.

Secondly, skills are either 1 or 2 range in Zerker mode, and almost all are single target. The only real difference between them is MP cost and DMG/MP ratio. Deadly Nightspade is currently the best attack after Shady Shovel, which has an unfair casting restriction given its short range. Now, in Human mode, the cast restriction makes sense because it steals MP. But in Zerker mode it's just another Hypermovement reduction spell. Shovel Kiss is not appealing in Zerker mode because Nightspade is better damage with a less restrictive cast range. Furthermore, the benefit to allies is dubious because they have to be surrounding the enemy you're attacking. It's likely they're tanks if that's the case, so why would they need MP if they don't intend to run away?

It would be preferable for there to be more variation in effects, range, and use for spells in Zerker mode. Furthermore, the small area on Shovel Shaker in Zerker mode is an insult after its damage was already significantly reduced.

I switched to Fire after a few weeks of trying to love Earth Enutrof post-nerf, but I just can't. They're not interesting to play at all for me. No class/build with only close range damage spells that have no distinguishing features other than AP cost are interesting to me. Furthermore, the other classes that do this have more utility for allies than Earth Enutrof, whose only contribution is slightly above average single-target dps and some earth resistance.


Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2008-05-13
posté June 05, 2013, 04:36:48 | #8
@Sljm

I completely agree with you. The purpose of switching between the two modes is not too highlighted as it should be, currently most earth enutrofs just go berserk and stay in that mode for the entire fight, what is simply a dumber playstyle than our current earth iops.
I changed some stuff in my post, I took away the range loss of Drhellzerker as the most powerful spell that can be used in that form is close combat. The Shady Shovel damage while in Zerk form is high (not 72, I forgot to edit that, it's 54 at 100) but it can only be cast once per target, plus it has the power of reducing the dodge of the target while increasing the lock of all adjacent allies (except the enutrof, of course). This can be really helpful in places like the celestial strich dungeon. Clumsiness is the highest ranged spell that can be used in zerk, and it's main role is just to reduce hypermovement.
Oh and Cutting, I forgot to edit, it only has 60% chance to appy broke!

-------------


Post edited guys! Sorry about what happened!


Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté June 05, 2013, 17:26:55 | #9
A shadow of their former self? They are stronger now than they ever were. The drhellzerker buff lasts for the whole turn rather than just one hit, and the AP/MP costs when paired with Not Dead Yet are way better then before, and most of the arsenal is useful, whereas only Shovel Shaker mattered pre-revamp.

When you say Switching between Enutrof and Drhellzerker doesn't help, and that shovel kiss is of dubious use, I'm doubting if you really know how to use an earth enu to their fullest extent. 1-2 range? Try 6 in Enutrof mode, 4 in Drhellzerker. Optionally you could gear for 8/6 range if you wanted to, but I find that 6/4 is optimal.

There is a reason Enutrofs can drain MP, then hypermovement, and turn back into enutrofs at will. MP drain isn't always useful, but when it's needed, it's a reliable mechanic.

The difference between Enu attacks goes beyond just ap/mp costs. Killer Spade is your go-to spell in Drhellzerker if you have 3 mp left, DN is your best mp removal at range and best spell at melee range in Drhellzerker (or if you need to hit diagonally), Shovel Kiss is your best spell overall in Enutrof form and best spell to hit with if you have allies close by or if an enemy is in a line, Shady Shovel is a reliable MP drain or strong one time use melee attack in Drhellzerker, and Shovel Shaker is the situational Line AoE.

If you only go Drhellzerker and use Deadly nightspade and Shady Shovel, you're doing it wrong.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2006-10-24
posté June 06, 2013, 01:05:42 | #10
I think you should be very, very careful about whom you accuse of not knowing how to play this game.

The damage bonus from moving is a joke. It's better than nothing if you have to move, but that's all.

Nothing Earth Enutrof is capable of right now can even compare to 3 Shady Shovel casts at 70 base damage x4 targets with the old Gold Mine bonus.

That being said, I'm not here to start a pissing match.

I've already said everything I need to say in this matter.
Click here 


This post has been edited by Sljm - June 06, 2013, 01:27:01.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté June 06, 2013, 01:34:19 | #11
LOL, 3 Shady Shovel against multiple targets. It's good, but how often did that happen? When it did, was it a battle you could lose?

Don't underestimate the bonus walking gives you against high resist targets.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2006-10-24
posté June 06, 2013, 02:10:15 | #12
I played with pandas. So, it happened every fight.


Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté June 06, 2013, 03:56:20 | #13

Quote (Sljm @ 06 June 2013 01:05) *
I think you should be very, very careful about whom you accuse of not knowing how to play this game.

If someone is wrong, they're wrong. It doesn't matter how long they've been playing. And I feel quite confident in what I said, especially considering your next line.


Quote
The damage bonus from moving is a joke. It's better than nothing if you have to move, but that's all.

A joke? It is immense against high resist targets, and is far stronger than what Enus used to have.


Quote
Nothing Earth Enutrof is capable of right now can even compare to 3 Shady Shovel casts at 70 base damage x4 targets with the old Gold Mine bonus.

Really? What does an extremely situational setup that relies entirely on another class prove, exactly? No, you can't do that anymore. You can, however, be way more effective in other much more common scenarios.


Quote
I've already said everything I need to say in this matter.

Those suggestions are extremely unappealing to me. They're mostly all nerfs, except for Shovel Shaker, which is quite clearly something you miss dearly, or things not well thought out at all (Why bother with a dodge bonus when you can just push yourself away every turn).

Not everyone plays Enutrof like you do. If you find you're not very good anymore, you might need to update your playstyle. I know it can be hard to understand that there's more than one way to play an Earth Enutrof now, especially considering before the revamp, the entire spec was ONE SPELL. Literally. Every single Earth Enutrof ever: Transform, spam Shovel Shaker. Now the class is more interesting in every way, has far more options and utility, and is better at everything besides hitting 4 targets carefully set up by a panda. Yeah, I'll take it.

That other thread, wow..."mediocre single target damage", said some other guy. Mediocre. It's the highest of any spec in the game. Mediocre. Yeah, excuse me while I do a mediocre 1500 to Magmog every turn from his side, something an Enu would never dream of before the revamp.


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2012-02-29
posté June 07, 2013, 06:01:14 | #14
I'm considering making an earth enu, but I don't see them often so I was concerned whether they are strong or not. I have made "support" characters before, and now I'm ready for a kick your ass character. Is earth enu the one for me? Other contenders: earth iop (stun) and earth rogue. I don't know why but I want to make an earth character PX


Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté June 07, 2013, 06:38:57 | #15

Quote (Noobility @ 07 June 2013 06:01) *
I'm considering making an earth enu, but I don't see them often so I was concerned whether they are strong or not. I have made "support" characters before, and now I'm ready for a kick your ass character. Is earth enu the one for me? Other contenders: earth iop (stun) and earth rogue. I don't know why but I want to make an earth character PX

I would consider Earth Enutrof the strongest of those three. Iop would be slightly tougher and has a few more tricks up its sleeve, Rogue would have better range. Enutrof has better damage and mobility, and isn't far behind in range.

Go for it.


Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2008-05-13
posté June 07, 2013, 12:24:08 | #16
@Noobility

My former build was earth enu, so I have some things to tell ^^

Earth Iop has better mobility as Earth Enutrof since mobility isn't all about having 16~18 MP. They can jump and they can push enemies. Enutrofs can only use MP and increase their dodge, which might not be enough when you find yourself surrounded. Earth Iops have a better gameplay strategy as they can use Defensive Stance to increase their block or consume their power to stun targets. Earth Rogues are equally versatile due to the fact that they can hit through resistances, push enemies and double their AP in order to maximize their damage during one turn, oh and yeah, they can become immune to ranged damage. The Earth Enutrof can take MP, gain dodge and go bersek in order to increase their damage output greatly. You'll find yourself using from 2 to 3 spells most of the time, but all of them do the same thing under zerk form, which is just damage. What may differ is the AP cost, so in that case Earth enus do need some brainwork to be played, but only some basic math.

Now about highest damage, I'm not sure I'd say Earth Enu has the highest damage output. I mean, if you consider you don't move or you just use 2~3 mp to gain the damage bonus, I'd have to agree. But that's an ideal plane, most of the times if you are not fighting close combat mobs you'll have to use MP, which decreases your damage output depending on how many MP you have to use, that's when range bonus becomes welcome. The damage isn't consistent because of that, sometimes you have to move, sometimes you don't have to move and sometimes you simply can't move. The Rogues and Iops will find themselves doing around the same damage every turn (with the exception of Fusilade of course, which literally doubles the damage output of Rogues an extremely reduces it in the following turn).

It's all about what you really are after, remember that even as an Earth enu you can pouch enemies and take MP, I think that's what makes Enu unique if compared to the two other builds.


This post has been edited by Niddhoggy - June 07, 2013, 16:13:17.
Reason for edit : grammar
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté June 07, 2013, 16:58:14 | #17
@Nidd: While that is partly true it all comes down to what you're up against.

In PvP, Enu can easily get more dodge than most opponents to escape. But frankly, an Enu wants to get close, CC range is fine most times, especially in PvP. The mobility Ice is talking about relates more to getting in range of your opponent. Why would earth Enu want to push someone outside of a tactical reason to kill a different target first.

Iops have Jump, but that's a limited move bringing you only two cells farther. It also means using it once prevents the Iop double rocking. Two jumps and they can't even double shaker.

Earth Enu's can gain MP every time they cast a spell and get two more MP for 1WP. With 16 MP and in range of a target an Enu's base dmg is 200-250. Sacrificing four MP to get in range of your target may drop that to 150-200 but you gain 140 elemental dmg.

On top of all this, for some reason the crit dmg of Deadly Nightspade is higher than x1.5. I've never tested it and could simply be a text error.


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2012-02-29
posté June 09, 2013, 03:59:10 | #18
Thanks for your replies ^^
I still can't decide so I think I'll get one of each up to lvl 31, test things in the restat chamber and see which one I like best


Wilder than Wild Dragoturkey * Member Since 2008-05-13
posté June 09, 2013, 17:06:45 | #19
Ok guys. I've had some thoughts after reading your feedback and I came up with a less impacting suggestion.

My main point was to enhance the two spells that are not so used right now, which are Cutting and Purge. Purge has been removed by an area of effect spell that still doesn't require line of sight and Cutting has been buffed. I reduced the pouch rate on Rascalry as I always found too easy to drop pouches through ranged attacks, and also to make Cutting more useful.
Tax damage was slightly decreased for the same matter, to make it as useful as refinement.
The Ice Drill spell can spawn a mine, which might help the fire branch or bring even a possible synergy between the two branches.

The range of most spells has been reduced by 1, as a matter of balancing.

Whenever I have the time to work on Earth and Fire spells I'll post them. Please give your feedback


Mine bonuses deserve some change and I'm not posting them now. I'll consider taking away the broke boost or reducing the percentage and replacing by something else, maybe ranged boost to water spells.

 


This post has been edited by Niddhoggy - June 09, 2013, 17:09:12.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté June 11, 2013, 13:13:27 | #20
I would like to give some of my thoughts about earth spells and drhellzerker mode that might help you with your suggestion:

While tranforming into drhellzerker i think all earth spells should change their name. They would still have the same level and exp that normal earth spells just that they will have different name... and effect modified.

Killer Spade - in Drhellzerker becomes Roar and pull everybody around Drhellzerker away by 1 cell.
Deadly Nightspade - in Drhellzerker becomes Pillar Emerge and has a 10% chance to apply Lead Leg to target (Cannot use MP to move)
Shovel Kiss - in Drhellzerker becomes Rollout and work in the similar way to Blisskrieg of Pandawa or Flame Fervor of Foggernaut (teleport Drhellzerker 2 cell behind target). If there is obstacle (if cell is blocked) in the cell where Drhellzerker would teleport, the spell hit twice (make Drhellzerker bounce from obstacle and move back to where drheller was).
Shady Shovel - in Drhellzerker becomes Shady Claw and steal 1 MP and has a chance to steal 2nd MP.
Shovel Shaker - in Drhellzerker becomes Earth Shaker and give 1MP to Drhellzerker for every target hit with aoe (max 4).

p.s. i like your idea to customize drheller at will.


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - June 11, 2013, 13:14:11.