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Rebalancing of the Cra
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-04-24
posté January 24, 2013, 11:55:50 | #21

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 24 January 2013 10:47) *
You joking right?
500% dmg is A LOT. It's one of things that make Cra overpowered.
I'm glad it got nerfed, but it will be still powerfull with 30%-80% dmg bonus after counting powerfull shooting.
I don't see a reason why they nerf range. Cra will have it highest anyway.

I agree. Right now Wakfu is more like "Sacrier/Sadida/Eniripsa/Cra/Pandawa Online". 14 classes... but only 5 of them are "good enough". The truth is... they are too good. They outdamage any other possible combination. What Ankama is doing is putting them back in the line where all other classes are right now. So when you want to raid some UB you -don't have to- use these 5 "the best" classes anymore. You can choose what to use agains them.

I like this direction of game progress. I can only hope that Fire Ecaflip, Air Xelor,Air Iops and other ridiculously overpowered setups will be nerfed as well as Cra. This will allow us to use ANY other class in thier place.

No more monopoly for heavy damage dealers!

~ Kerath, Water Xelor, Support, Soon-to-be Damage Dealer as good as Cra

Good job Ankama.


This post has been edited by Velore - January 24, 2013, 11:56:14.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2010-06-20
posté January 24, 2013, 14:38:07 | #22
Have to agree with Velore and kiku. You guys have bigger range a and better damage than most classes. You deserved a nerf.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-04-03
posté January 24, 2013, 14:44:04 | #23

Quote (Velore @ 24 January 2013 11:55) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 24 January 2013 10:47) *
You joking right?
500% dmg is A LOT. It's one of things that make Cra overpowered.
I'm glad it got nerfed, but it will be still powerfull with 30%-80% dmg bonus after counting powerfull shooting.
I don't see a reason why they nerf range. Cra will have it highest anyway.

I agree. Right now Wakfu is more like "Sacrier/Sadida/Eniripsa/Cra/Pandawa Online". 14 classes... but only 5 of them are "good enough". The truth is... they are too good. They outdamage any other possible combination. What Ankama is doing is putting them back in the line where all other classes are right now. So when you want to raid some UB you -don't have to- use these 5 "the best" classes anymore. You can choose what to use agains them.

I like this direction of game progress. I can only hope that Fire Ecaflip, Air Xelor,Air Iops and other ridiculously overpowered setups will be nerfed as well as Cra. This will allow us to use ANY other class in thier place.

No more monopoly for heavy damage dealers!

~ Kerath, Water Xelor, Support, Soon-to-be Damage Dealer as good as Cra

Good job Ankama.

They should make other classes better and stronger, but not turn all the good classes into the waste. If "playable" means "OP" now.. Ahahah. I don't know what to say then.

500% brain damage is really rare, and that's what can be opposed to cra's weak resists, low hp and meelee helpless. It's mostly a pleasant feature that makes player to love his cra.
If brain damage appeared at every battle, that could be considered as OP. But not the current rate.


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2011-12-28
posté January 24, 2013, 14:57:05 | #24

Quote (Seguchi-sama @ 24 January 2013 14:44) *

They should make other classes better and stronger, but not turn all the good classes into the waste. If "playable" means "OP" now.. Ahahah. I don't know what to say then.

500% brain damage is really rare, and that's what can be opposed to cra's weak resists, low hp and meelee helpless. It's mostly a pleasant feature that makes player to love his cra.
If brain damage appeared at every battle, that could be considered as OP. But not the current rate.
other classes are playable its classes like cra who needed nerf because they simply are too op 9ap for build that can deal easily 600 without any buffs and 800-1000ish when accurate shot (witch happens all the freaking time seriously iv yet to seen a cra who dosent get some sort of accurate hits on a row)

i agree with the beacons range nerf that is kinda over the top but rest of the nerfs is done well.
and as for cras resistance,hp .. join the club thats pretty much same for rest of the classes only few classes have 20% resistance bonus and they kinda need it since theyre melee classes.


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-04-24
posté January 24, 2013, 15:00:05 | #25

Quote (Seguchi-sama @ 24 January 2013 14:44) *

They should make other classes better and stronger, but not turn all the good classes into the waste. If "playable" means "OP" now.. Ahahah. I don't know what to say then.

Hahahah... that's it. That's the kind of logic they will shatter thanks to this rebalance patch. I will quote you again now, check this out:

"but not turn all the good classes into the waste"

You said it and yet you don't understand it. That's what they are planning to do. There will be no "good classes" anymore, all classes will be equal. Your skill will determinate how good the class is... not the numers and % chances for something. That's just great. Brain damage was so broken it wasn't even funny. And now Cra will be lined up with most of the other classes in terms of damage. It's still high, it's still ranged... but it's not overpowered.

Once again, great job Ankama and I can only hope for more.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-07-08
posté January 24, 2013, 15:26:09 | #26
Cra is cheaters with brain dmg?U are joking now?
Why now are such comments as "cra not catch and well that removed the brain damage?" Excuse me, if you choose close combat, then look for a way to catch up with the class.
Cra and so is not the strongest class, and is not my favorite, but I do not like that so they cut.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté January 24, 2013, 16:11:07 | #27

Quote (gregobb @ 24 January 2013 14:38) *
Have to agree with Velore and kiku. You guys have bigger range a and better damage than most classes. You deserved a nerf.
You give us too much credit, maybe you just deserve a buff

Btw, I really dont like spells which get limited per turn, with a few exceptions. Honestly Im fine with things like Blazing arrow (mainly because im not a fire cra) and 1ap / 2mp spells or 2ap / 1mp spells, which act as additional damage and not as the source. But when it gets implemented to a spell like storm arrow, when the only other optional damage spells are Homing arrow (really..? only thing that shines is it's range) plaguing (because it has no los its damage suffers) and retreating arrow (which 1 is not practical for damage means and consumes wp)

I would much rather a change which made the beacon an active spell, possibly replacing long distance combat (does anyone want to spend 20 points into +20% crit damage...?), rather than 3 separate elemental spells. Seems more practical in my opinion, with the only downside being that it might need a few points to be useful. This would solve the point I made above for air cra, hopefully opening up more spell combos, and possibly changing the cost of storm arrow to something lower while keeping its 2/turn limit.


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - January 24, 2013, 16:19:42.
Dokushuuuuu * Member Since 2008-01-09
posté January 24, 2013, 16:38:23 | #28
Agree, Cras are still overpowered. They shouldn't have one of the best damages in the game, they are rangers for Eni's sake. They should be hard to get, hard to hit. They can stay away from the enemies, and that's their power, not huge damage. Right now they have the best range AND one of the best (if not the best, together with Iop) damages from ALL classes, it's ridiculous. And if that's not enough, it's aoe damage...

Of course people will be complaining because their class is being nerfed, but that have to be done. I'm happy that Ankama if finally balancing the classes.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté January 24, 2013, 16:58:18 | #29
I used to like cra - it was my first class i made in game. It was good in the days where it could place beacon anywhere, though HP of beacon was too low for high lvl, so change to charges was needed, but in same time Cra got changed a lot... to the worse in my opinion. It became ranged iop with ability to have lucky dmg of ecaflips hitting 500% dmg additional as sick dmg that will only tell all the other classes:
" Sorry, your strategy maybe was good, but i got lucky so die! You will never have a chance against me because i need 1 lucky shot and you just fail" - this is why the nerf was needed. And i'm happy with the change to Cra precision. It will make cra less of ecaflip and more of cra.
Still Cra should be rather agile ranged class, not a rocket cannon. Cra arrows are freaking powerful.

What they should do is remove wp cost from Beacon, decrease charges a bit, made them able to place anywhere, even on bridges, and allow cra to jump up to 6 times for fight with beacon sneakin', but in same time lower the damage of spells, wich should not cost any MP, so we can run while shooting, but not the omgsopowerful rocket-arrows but normal arrows. Saying this i liked Storm Arrow with it's old cost, when it didn't needed MP. I liked to be able to choose to use all MP for Long-Distance combat for increased damage, when i knew enemy won't catch me this turn, and i liked to use all mp to position myself, but with spells that cost MP for a ranged class, it only made Cra too strong. I wouldn't even mind if Retreat Arrow would not cost WP, because, why it cost wp anyway, when other classes can push without wp? But damage should be decreased and MP should be removed from spell costs.

Note that base dmg is something like:
1AP = 10 dmg (at spell lvl 100)
1MP = 15 dmg (at spell level 100)

Wich only means that if someone is ranged and doesn't need to move, will get great adventage in damage, while it's enemy might need to waste turn or two before actually doing something to Cra. So yeah Cra spells should not cost MP.


Strong classes have usually passive dmg bonus (or something like xelor's Dial dmg bonus) but in same time they have increased dmg in spells to:
1AP = 11-14 dmg
1MP = 16-20 dmg
Wich only make some classes way too strong. And that's what break balance.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté January 24, 2013, 17:22:31 | #30
@Kiku, the blocking option for beacons was removed because it could be abused heavily for strategies that fooled the AI or made it impossible to be attacked at all.

@Velore, I can agree with many things you say.

It is indeed a problem that only a handful of classes are valuable for late game content right now and that needs to change. A quick mind should be able to use fire rogues and water ecas and whatnot in UB fights. Not just sacrier, eni, sadi + damage dealers, rest is not getting an invite.

I can also agree with cras damage getting nerfed. They are ranged damage dealers, but the focus should always rest on the range rather than the damage. Now that cras finally can actually get away cheap (they used to have to use a wp for any form of get away skill and that sucked) their range is worth a lot more than the actual damage. So again: Yes to damage nerf, yes to spell restriction per turn, no to range nerf.

What I do not agree with is your wish to make a cra deal the same damage as a water Xelor. The Xelor has a very powerful support ability that also has quite some range. If now it deals the same damage as a cra, then nobody needs to play a cra anymore, because your Xelor can do the job better. It is ok to have classes that deal more damage than others and it is also ok and even necessary to have different roles in battle. Otherwise there is no need to make this a multiplayer strategy game.

So in the end Cras and Iops need higher damage than support classes to fullfill their role or they become useless. Cras can still use a nerf, no doubt. (I am afraid UBs might be too tough btw if you just use the nerf hammer all the time instead of buffing up other classes. Who here can reliably beat moowolf without a sacrier or panda in group for example?)

Last a word on Iops. Iops are severly underpowered currently. Nobody seems to realize it because they hit for a lot of damage, too much damage even. But they have nothing else and without any range or any form of nice support skill you are useless in end game content. I would never think of taking an Iop to an UB. So they should get damage nerfs, but they need something else. Maybe group buff skills or something of that sort.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté January 24, 2013, 17:32:46 | #31

Quote (Shaleigh1 @ 24 January 2013 17:22) *
@Kiku, the blocking option for beacons was removed because it could be abused heavily for strategies that fooled the AI or made it impossible to be attacked at all.

Last a word on Iops. Iops are severly underpowered currently. Nobody seems to realize it because they hit for a lot of damage, too much damage even. But they have nothing else and without any range or any form of nice support skill you are useless in end game content. I would never think of taking an Iop to an UB. So they should get damage nerfs, but they need something else. Maybe group buff skills or something of that sort.
I know why it got changed, but they did the wrong thing. Pandawa can still block bridges with barrel thanks to Triple Whammy, Osamodas obviously can place summon there, sadida can block it with seed/doll, etc... What i think is that AI of monstrs should be improved, beacons should be maybe changed to 3 charges max or maybe they should have no charges at all, but should break if hit, but then obviously no WP cost for beacon (maybe 1mp cost instead). That would make Cra more tactical and not overpowered.

As sadida i keep using monsters AI against them, especially when i want to create fire dolls. It's part of the game to learn monsters AI and adopt to it. Though i know that some monsters, when bridge got blocked, simply run away instead of attacking thing that blocks bridge - but thats what should be changed (AI) instead of limiting beacons to where they can be placed and where they cannot. Sometimes i wanted to place beacon in cell that could block the way in current turn, but once monster would move, it wouldnt block the way at all. This limitation is awkward and sometimes stupid that i cannot place beacon where i want to, even if it doesn't block the way completly (especially if enemy can for example walk on cells with effects). They should rework this, not get easier way and make Cra limited with beacon positioning.

Oh and for iops - they are like that. Huge dmg but not good if you can keep them away. However i agree they could have some buff to allies. For now they seem to have Standard and +25% dmg bonus for 1 wp to ally in close. Sad but true, iops are hard hitting but boring (for me).


This post has been edited by Kikuihimonji - January 24, 2013, 17:34:27.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté January 24, 2013, 17:35:46 | #32
Hm, wasn't aware that Panda's barrell can still do that. Then it should be the same for all kinds of objects. Either yes or no. Actually since becaons can be easily destroyed now I don't see much of a reason not to allow it, as long as the AI is smart enough to focus beacons and similar objects when they need to find a way to move through.

Edit: Have you ever seen an Iop use bravery standard? I haven't. If you want this to be viabl it needs a buff I guess. Calling Iops underpowered might have been the wrong word btw. I just wanted to point out that their damage does not make them overpowered. Because they lack in all other fields.


This post has been edited by Shaleigh1 - January 24, 2013, 17:37:05.
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2011-04-24
posté January 24, 2013, 17:58:09 | #33

Quote (Shaleigh1 @ 24 January 2013 17:22) *
What I do not agree with is your wish to make a cra deal the same damage as a water Xelor. The Xelor has a very powerful support ability that also has quite some range. If now it deals the same damage as a cra, then nobody needs to play a cra anymore, because your Xelor can do the job better. It is ok to have classes that deal more damage than others and it is also ok and even necessary to have different roles in battle.

Yes, of course I agree with you... the thing is: Right now this Cra damage is so OVERWHELMING it's impossible for my Xelor to do any UB, they will just pick Sacri/Eni/Sadi and 3 Cras.
After this balance tweak... I can jump into one of these spots, right now it's just mathematically impossible to outdamage these classes or even to get close to this damage output.

I will say even more, Xelors also deserve some nerfs. Let's be hones, Xelor Punishment will be the first to nerf. After that I'd say that some AP stealing spells should be like 2 uses per turn. I like my class, but I'm not that kind of player who always have to play with "the best one" as someone said before he does. That's just weak, and I like to enjoy my game with what I like, not with what is the best.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté January 24, 2013, 18:42:45 | #34
Yes, again agreed with most of what you say. I have a lvl105 cra and a lvl105 xelor and they could both use a nerf. The Xelor is focussed on punishment.

If nobody takes you to UBs toss me a pm, I am sure I can fit someone in.

But seriously, there have to be interesting strategies for UBs that involved AP stealing and whatnot. If all of those don't work then UBs need a serious reowrk.


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2010-12-17
posté January 24, 2013, 19:59:43 | #35

Quote (Bugyvugy @ 24 January 2013 10:34) *
Shi- Didnt see this. o_o
This. Is. Really. Not. Good. :c
I hope for 500% dmg and stun each fight. This is really good thing. Im lucky but I dont hit 500% dmg often. In pvp If u lost WP and cant go away from player this really helps. Do nice damage and stun, so you have chance to hit and run(Hit and run lol).
Cra - my favourite class. Class who cant be attacked from long-distance and this class in fight can save nice HP, can hit strong from long-distance. If this 'rebalance' will be... Maybe Cras will not be my favourite class.
Maybe new earth cras are good, need to test them. But range and precision nerfed. :c
And sure poor fire cras. Now only 2 Blazing arrows in turn. Now i think they will not be stronger other branches.
Pff... ;_;
p.s. Lol, sorry for my bad Eng.


Yeah! I want to brain hit enemies at every shot, and a spell that gives +90% CH (yes, 90%, not 100%), and a spell that gives +10AP

I'm gonna go build my own Cra, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the Cra!


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-04-03
posté January 24, 2013, 21:16:33 | #36

Quote
There will be no "good classes" anymore, all classes will be equal.
Yes i meant that.
All classes can be equal - equally good.
But.
After boosting the weak ones, not after turning the strong ones into ugly non-playable crap.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté January 25, 2013, 04:53:00 | #37

Quote (Rokugatsu @ 24 January 2013 16:38) *
Agree, Cras are still overpowered. They shouldn't have one of the best damages in the game, they are rangers for Eni's sake. They should be hard to get, hard to hit. They can stay away from the enemies, and that's their power, not huge damage. Right now they have the best range AND one of the best (if not the best, together with Iop) damages from ALL classes, it's ridiculous. And if that's not enough, it's aoe damage...

Of course people will be complaining because their class is being nerfed, but that have to be done. I'm happy that Ankama if finally balancing the classes.
How can you expect a cra to stay away when maps are commonly 15 x 15 fields, with most classes having 5 mp with some sort of jump spell. Btw, maybe a fire cra is overpowered (dont play) but what about air / earth....

Will probably swap to earth when the changes take place, the others seem pretty dull now.


Quote
Yes i meant that. All classes can be equal - equally good. But. After boosting the weak ones , not after turning the strong ones into ugly non-playable crap.
+1

(i added the crossout)


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - January 25, 2013, 04:58:16.
Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2012-04-08
posté January 25, 2013, 08:23:15 | #38

Quote (Rokugatsu @ 24 January 2013 16:38) *
Agree, Cras are still overpowered. They shouldn't have one of the best damages in the game, they are rangers for Eni's sake. They should be hard to get, hard to hit. They can stay away from the enemies, and that's their power, not huge damage. Right now they have the best range AND one of the best (if not the best, together with Iop) damages from ALL classes, it's ridiculous. And if that's not enough, it's aoe damage...

Of course people will be complaining because their class is being nerfed, but that have to be done. I'm happy that Ankama if finally balancing the classes.
With this kind of logic I can state that people with less-playable classes are merely frustrating and like to see good classes are being nerfed. In fact, I just hope all the calsses eventually become playable and equal or close to that.

For those who state that cras are super-ranged super-DD and etc. class. Have you ever played cra? In the past they were OP, that's for sure, just remember that pretty air cra. But now? I wouldn't say so.

First, Their range advantage can easily be negated by random combat map generation. Have you tried to fight somebody in mines or some rocky map? Even maps with a lot of space have their edges and in some point there is nowhere to flee. And if there is a full party the deployment cells are even more limited.

Second, nowadays a lot of classes can easily get close to archers and end up in a more comfortable position to fight. As I said previously, cras' evasion abilities cuts the damage. Disengage just allows to break the lock, not to get to the other part of the map, eats 3 ap (1/3rd of the turn's damage in 9 ap build). Beacon sneaking combo can be used only thrice and eats 2 ap (also 1/3rd of the damage is lost in the same build). So you either moving away and do much reduced dmg or stay in place, do full dmg and risk to become overrun. Also, one thing not to forget is the minimum range of spells.
Somebody compares cras with iops forgetting iops HP value and an ability to get into close quarters pretty fast by jumping. Why is this not an OP calss?

Third, again - resists and hp. They are not that high as some of people here consider them to be. In most high-level dungeons if mobs focus on dealing damage to a cra for even 1 turn - you will definitely need a healer to survive the rest of the fight.

Fourth, particulary for 500% dmg chance. It's really rare. One absolutely cannot rely on that dmg to win fights, it's just a nice rare & random bonus. If you are saying that you are constantly losing fights due to it... well, then I hardly believe it.

It's sad that nowadays only some of the classes have their constant roles in fighting powerful enemies (like UBs). But its the problem of other classes, devs need to balance them istead.
And, btw, if cras are so OP, why are those full-cras parties nowhere to be found?


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-04-28
posté January 25, 2013, 09:32:03 | #39
Thing is Cra's need better way to avoid close combat without using WP, but they need their dmg to be weakned. It would be better for cra to keep avoiding the dmg and escaping lock zone and cornered situations, then to make Cra with uber dmg to kill enemy before it came to close combat.

And 500% dmg, even if random - is OP. It turns game from tactical to even more luck based, wich sucks. You can suddenly win with this crazy dmg, not to mention what happen when you do that on UB from aoe on voodoll. No wonder people choose cra's for ub's - because if they all fail in tactic or positioning, then there is always a luck that may allow Cra to kill UB with it. That's why they had to change this. Cra was good without this random dmg bonus, i got surprised that they even added it.

p.s. Yes i played Cra, i know their playstyle and what problems they have. And i also think that iop's jumping abilitties is too good, especially that we cannot place beacons on every cell we want to, and especially that beacons cost WP, but iops can jump in line from 5 cells away (not to mention their high lock). But about Cra i can tell it's damage really need nerf. As for team fight i think Cra should have spell that make target not block los. I have suggested this as "Blind Spot" spell. Just mind reading my first post in this topic.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2006-11-11
posté January 25, 2013, 09:34:03 | #40

Quote (Velore @ 24 January 2013 11:55) *

Quote (Kikuihimonji @ 24 January 2013 10:47) *
You joking right?
500% dmg is A LOT. It's one of things that make Cra overpowered.
I'm glad it got nerfed, but it will be still powerfull with 30%-80% dmg bonus after counting powerfull shooting.
I don't see a reason why they nerf range. Cra will have it highest anyway.

I agree. Right now Wakfu is more like "Sacrier/Sadida/Eniripsa/Cra/Pandawa Online". 14 classes... but only 5 of them are "good enough". The truth is... they are too good. They outdamage any other possible combination. What Ankama is doing is putting them back in the line where all other classes are right now. So when you want to raid some UB you -don't have to- use these 5 "the best" classes anymore. You can choose what to use agains them.

I like this direction of game progress. I can only hope that Fire Ecaflip, Air Xelor,Air Iops and other ridiculously overpowered setups will be nerfed as well as Cra. This will allow us to use ANY other class in thier place.

No more monopoly for heavy damage dealers!

~ Kerath, Water Xelor, Support, Soon-to-be Damage Dealer as good as Cra

Good job Ankama.
yea. you are right - ankama should lower rollback rate or remove it from game. its too OP