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Brains vs time investment
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-03-30
posté May 15, 2013, 21:55:14 | #21
Topic Question:
"Basically the question is, does Intelligence of the player actually matter if they invest more time into the game?"

Short Answer:
No.

Long Answer:
Just like almost any other MMORPG. The more time you invest, the stronger your avatar becomes thus trivializing much of what the game has as a challenge.

In wakfu's case, leeching and multi-accounting is promoted by Ankama to the point of almost being a necessity.

Sure, a lowbie that only has 1 account will find the game VERY challenging at first.

*Consider:
1. Their ability levels.
2. Their lack of skill points into passive's and actives.
*Most classes don't even really become "viable" until they've maxed out 2-3 "Masteries".
3. The sheer amount of farming/grinding required to level any profession, past 20.

So once they've gotten to about lv50-60 they can solo most dungeons and they've always got the "option" to buy more accounts and create their own "grind group" if they're having a hard time finding people to farm stuff with or simply want all the loot/kama to themselves.

Basically, now they're mass farming mats and since wakfu favors Power/Luck > Skill/Knowledge, they don't really need to worry bout tactics at all at this point and just plow through content to mindlessly collect loot, again and again. (rinse/repeat as needed).

Sure frigost was a bit different at first and required a little bit of "intellegence" as to what you're doing. but in the end, those "challenges" really didn't matter either.

Why?

Well, lets refer back to your question:
"does Intelligence of the player actually matter if they invest more time into the game?"

If you do any of these:
1. Powerlevel.
2. Wear gear your own level.
3. Multi-account.

Then even the Frigost mobs don't require much "intelligence" to beat, because you've got raw power backing you up, due to the sheer amount of time you've invested.

tl;dr
No. the more time you invest into wakfu, the less "intelligence" is required by the game.


Protip:
If you want a game to challenge you, play a MOBA.

As a point of reference, for anyone curious about the difference between most MMOs like Wakfu and a game that challenges you:

Click here

Skip to 4mins 50seconds.


This post has been edited by ShadowFacts - May 15, 2013, 22:06:40.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté May 15, 2013, 23:09:09 | #22

Quote (Starbux @ 15 May 2013 21:20) *
Wipe your chin and re-read my post as I gave many examples for you.

Word of advice part 2: read posts in their entirety and don't get caught up on one example that doesn't work for you.

It would be nice if you could let it go now. The mod intervened for a reason, I gotta gree with him.

So, I still have a long initial post with lots of arguments and statements. Maybe you want to just quote me bit by bit and address me there? I would be interested in a civil and mature conversation on the topic, without the insults and the snide comments. So what do you say?

Maybe I misunderstood your deleted post too, but I just saw a long list of examples and no statement what those examples were supposed to show me. I don't see how mentioning a bypass surgery has anything to do with the topic for example. Maybe you can explain that too?

Thank you.


This post has been edited by Shaleigh1 - May 15, 2013, 23:13:01.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-03-28
posté May 15, 2013, 23:15:07 | #23
I'm glad you finally took my advice and settled down. Let's start with Shadowfacts spectacular post since my spectacular post was deleted due to hurt feelings.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté May 15, 2013, 23:21:57 | #24
I really don't wanna push it but I never had to settle down. I was all the time in the same calm mood as I am now. You seem to have made up my mood in your head. But I gotta say it is kinda hurtful when someone comes along and calls you stupid and upset for no reason

@Topic:

Well, I guess I can agree with the conclusion of ShadowFacts, but that is really a triviality, is it not? Of course the required intelligence becomes less the further you advance ressource wise and are ahead of the stuff that tests your intelligence.

I am talking about scenarios where the status quo is still one of posing a challenge to you. I mentioned Magmog before. He should be beaten a dozen times everyday now if Wakfu really had so little to do with doing the right thing during a battle and so much with just wearing the right stuff.

How would you two explain that he is in fact not beaten regularly? I mean if no strategy is involved then the equipment and level of the lowest group that ever beat it should suffice for anyone, no matter who they are, to beat him then. That seems not to happen though.


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-03-28
posté May 15, 2013, 23:35:23 | #25
Easy explanation: Time. UB difficulty comes with attempt limits. People get around this limit by multi-clienting and spending time lvling/gearing alt teams. Are these people more intelligent than average wakfu players? Doubtfully. Just more dedicated.

And yes Shadowfacts wins this thread.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-03-30
posté May 16, 2013, 00:19:59 | #26

Quote (Starbux @ 15 May 2013 23:35) *
Easy explanation: Time. UB difficulty comes with attempt limits. People get around this limit by multi-clienting and spending time lvling/gearing alt teams. Are these people more intelligent than average wakfu players? Doubtfully. Just more dedicated.

And yes Shadowfacts wins this thread.

Thanks for the vote of confidence

I've actually had this debate many times over the past few weeks. (about MMO's in general and their reliance on the skinnerbox, rather than good game design).

Actually, if you're interested...



Spoiler: (highlight to show)

How many people do you think that play Wakfu have also played WoW and seen the personal "hate train" (over the past few years) associated with grinding gear, the holy trinity and power creep?

More specifically, when GW2 was coming out. Anet's marketing advertised GW2 as a game "beyond your typical MMO".

Here's some highlights:
1. No more fighting for resources, because everyone gets their own harvesting nodes.
(per user visiblity).

2. Removal of the Holy trinity.
(Every class has abilities to tank, heal and dps ~ so even a group of 5 warriors could beat an endgame dungeon/raid)

3. Adding "scaling up" content and a level down mechanic.
(Used to keep players "power" inline with the general level of the zone's content).

4. Participating in PvP automatically levels you to "max"
(Going to World Vs. World zone will auto-level your character to the cap of Lv80).

_________________________

With all of those mechanics, the goal of GW2 was simple:
*Create an MMO that's more like a single player game with online co-op, where players explore the world and play because they enjoy the game.. NOT because some skinnerbox tells them they need to keep grinding content/crafting/levels/ect.

Yet, with all of that... people STILL didn't like GW2.

Not because it was a bad game, but instead.. because there was no challenge in it.

By removing the trinity, the "scaling" content had nothing to balance itself against. So the mobs didn't tactically get any harder.. they just got stupid amounts of HP and hit like trucks or spawned that many more "ads".

Basically, they just traded "Tank and Spank" for "Strafe and Spam".
*Zergfest*

Likewise, gear was easily obtainable and the best crafting gear (aside from the legendary weapons) could be purchased for mere silver or the occasional gold.

why?

Because GW2 dumbed everything down to a "beyond casual" level:

1.The best gear in the game wasn't statistically superior to the 2nd or 3rd best gear, so there was no reason to grind dungeons. + Had a token system for weapon "skins".

2. Anyone could be anything and having others around just made things take longer, so you didn't "need" other players anymore.


The moral of the story?
Removing or even using mechanics without understanding what they're there for, is bad game design.

Wakfu works "as is" because it's your typical mindless sandbox grinder.
*it's not trying to be different, because it doesn't have to be to keep you playing/paying.



_______________________________________


Anywho, to answer the question about magmog and any other UB.. if I'm not mistaken, they're not easily killable because of the sheer amount of luck it takes for them not to instantly screw over anyone trying to kill them.

Something about critstorms, stunmob zergs and what not.

Basically saying, it's not "intelligence" that's causing people to have a hard time, but instead.. it's the random number generator rolling against them.


This post has been edited by ShadowFacts - May 16, 2013, 00:24:46.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté May 16, 2013, 07:17:10 | #27
Time is not an answer since if you have to spam attempts at an UB to win then my argument is correct that indeed strategy is in place here. You might attempt to circumvent it by investing more time than others, but that is ultimately a futile or at least a very limited attempt as the success rates at UBs shows.

There are usually the same few groups of people that win there every week and the same many people who lose. on the same few characters mind you.

That is also the answer to the luck factor. You always see the same people win and lose and with the sheer sample size that we have by now for UBs as Black Cro the luck factor would have been overcome and Black Crow feathers would be flooding the market.

There was a post in the Black Crow thread from someone beating it every week and that person explained very well that a good strategy tends to let the random factor run towards 0 especially at Black Cro and Magmog is not very random anyway.

On Remington we have exactly one player who knows how to beat Magmog reliably. He wins there every week. Nobody else ever did. Not since the day they put that beast in. You want to tell me that is random? Luck? He wins there every week, nobody else does. If that is luck then it has to be the most amazing winning streak in the history of...well anything.

So anything else? Because those two arguments really, really do not work.

Edit: Btw I am not saying those factors you ar ementioning do not play a role at all in Wakfu, that would be silly. Of course the people who invest more time are far ahead of those who don't and of course it will give you a higher win percentage if luck is on your side. But what bothers me is you flat out denying that strategy plays a role in being successful in this game and that you seem to weigh it as a very minor factor, when all the evidence is pointing at strategy still being what is majorly responsible for win and loss at the high end content. Unless Wakfu is like the Bermuda Triangle of probability calculation and there is some crazy stuff in terms of luck and bad luck going on here.


This post has been edited by Shaleigh1 - May 16, 2013, 07:26:59.
Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-01-22
posté May 16, 2013, 07:57:17 | #28
This game isn't that simple. Plenty of situations require clever thinking to get the best out of it. Bad players or those being beaten or surpassed in whatever endeavor they are taking part of will often try to claim it's all about time invested or money for multiple accounts. It's a tired old excuse, and it's really about time it was dropped.

Of course time invested helps. Obviously better gear means you have a bigger margin of error. But you still need to think about what you do. Having the best gear in the game won't help if you are terrible.

So many times I've invited new people or random players to parties for either UBs or just straight grinding, and as their turn started, I thought "Hrm...This guy should and surely will move there, use X skill on that mob, which will kill it, then use his specialty to teleport there, move that enemy, freeing the upcoming player to make full use of his turn and at the same time getting out of the way as to not block Line of Sight on this other player.", only to then witness him execute the most baffling, thoughtless and ineffective turn ever witnessed by anyone. And then I see a thread like this where some claim that it's all about time, and requires little or no thought. I thoroughly disagree.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté May 16, 2013, 08:04:23 | #29
Thank you, thought I was the only one thinking that way.

Just one comment. When a new player is making mistakes in a fight that is also due to a lack of experience. So I guess there one could factor in time investment, since the ones with more experience are able to adapt faster, go more in depth in terms of developing strategies etc and also about avoiding the small mistakes.

Like knowing that Moowolf has 6 range and 5 MP (uh or the othr way around lol...). If you don't know that yet you will step too close at least once, but after that you will avoid that mistake.

The same goes for knowing the synergies between classes and knowing how the rest of your team operates. That might be one of the most crucial things to know in Wakfu.

So in the end time does play a role in terms of experience, but it is in some way combined with your cognitive abilities and your talent to proccess new informations and turn them into finished strategies.


This post has been edited by Shaleigh1 - May 16, 2013, 08:05:06.
Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2012-01-24
posté May 16, 2013, 08:11:26 | #30

Quote (IYesWayI @ 15 May 2013 02:40) *

Quote (aquabeauty @ 14 May 2013 21:20) *
This game does not require 'intelligence'

They say its a strategy game but the strategy component is extremely minimal....

You need TIME to invest in this game. LOTS and LOTS of time, for all you do is grind.. grind for gear, grind for levels, grindddd grindddd grindddd .... =/

In pvp, yes you need a little bit of brains but it all comes down to your class and the ever so growing gap between 'support' toons and dpt toons.

You still can't win against the douche bag whose's class is more op by retarded design + has invested more time into grinding/buying gear. =/
I promise that if you give everyone the same high level gear not everyone will be able to kill BC and Magmog.

This is an MMO. You grind. This provides hours of gameplay and is how all MMORPGs function. There are always going to be classes better suited for PvP or PvE. Support classes arent supposed to be good in PvP. The only way to make every class viable in PvP is to make every class DPT.
For one not every class proves useful in certain ultimate bosses so AWFUL example. And second DPT doesn't always win fights I win far more with tankier toons that have less DPS. When I re-sub ill duel you with several toons I play and show you.

But as for them saying time investment means THAT much I beat Magmog/Hushed/high end Frig geared players while I am in sets like whispered, alpha predator +milkar, moowolf. Now that is not to say that putting more effort/time into the game to get those gears doesn't provide a noticeable advantage compared to those that don't BUT the advantage is not game breaking and is rather common among MMORPG's.
While wakfu is time consuming its far less so than the vast majority of mmo's Ill provide examples if need be.

What it comes down to is bad players will always complain that something isn't easy enough or is too time consuming, if they want everyone to have the same odds regardless of time spent in game they should go play guild wars 2.

~Stormed 


This post has been edited by Thejordand - May 16, 2013, 08:28:54.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-02-22
posté May 16, 2013, 12:26:07 | #31
I know people who have been playing sacriers for months and they still haven't mastered all the capabilities that Tranposition+Attract (and some air spell sometimes) has to offer. I often hear that the required positioning is impossible. I know people who still claim that "+Damage from behind" and "+Critical hit damage" multiplies the total damage. So they gear for that and they really believe that it works. I still see very many Air Cras who tend to use 2 AP, or the 4 AP spell on one target instead of using beacon or the push spell to hit more enemies at once with the main spell used twice. I still see people who play Fire Rogues and fail. Well, it's a great class if you ask me. I learned not to waste time gainsaying it and it made me believe that your intellect affects your gameplay in a quite significant way. People really believe that there's only one tactic for everything. Wrong. So many classes have teleport and push spells or actives and passives which would be very beneficial in certain situations. You have only 30 seconds to think of something, you make a simple choice and you believe that you did the best you could. It doesn't have to be true. Some people are too confident about their actions, they don't even assume existance of a better choice. I've witnessed many examples of thinking "out of the box" in Wakfu and I'm trying not to miss the chance to do something creative every single turn.


This post has been edited by FajneCycki - May 16, 2013, 12:51:38.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2012-01-26
posté May 16, 2013, 12:51:39 | #32

Quote (Shaleigh1 @ 16 May 2013 07:17) *


On Remington we have exactly one player who knows how to beat Magmog reliably. He wins there every week. Nobody else ever did. Not since the day they put that beast in. You want to tell me that is random? Luck? He wins there every week, nobody else does. If that is luck then it has to be the most amazing winning streak in the history of...well anything.


Spoiler: (highlight to show)
I KNOW THIS ONE GUY WHO ALWAYS KILLED MAGMOG SINCE HE CAME OUT AND NEVER MISSED IT FOR A WEEK AND NO ONE ELSE KNOWS ABOUT HIM AND I'm the only one who he ever told and no one ever noticed him with the magmog reflect aura.


Just saying

I highly doubt most, if not all of what you said here.



This post has been edited by HateSpawn - May 16, 2013, 12:52:05.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-02-22
posté May 16, 2013, 12:56:11 | #33
I confirm ^ that player exists His streak isn't as good as they say, but he has a very solid tactic and he wins continuously.


This post has been edited by FajneCycki - May 16, 2013, 13:01:18.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté May 16, 2013, 13:12:47 | #34
HateSpawn: What? Uh, this is pretty much common knowledge on our server. That guy was even mentioned by Troyle for being the only one beating Maqgmog.

If you at least quoted me without making up stuff there and ridiculing my quote you might have a point. That guy probably loses from time to time. My point however is that he is the only one who manages to beat Magmog at all on Remington so far and he has done that repeatedly. So that shows there is a strategy involved and not only luck.

So even if he lost 30% or 50% or whatever of his encounters my point is still proven by the sole fact that he did beat him more than one or two times.

@Jekkyll: I think your last point is very correct and very important. People refuse to learn, because they do not question their choices. There is always room for improvement especially when you only had 30 seconds and you got to be aware of that.

There is a perfect choice and with the multitude of choices available it is very likely you never make that throughout an entire fight. If you are aware of that and look for mistakes in yourself and not in the luck factor then you are much more likely to improve yourself.


This post has been edited by Shaleigh1 - May 16, 2013, 13:17:25.
Fansite Operator * Member Since 2011-05-17
posté May 16, 2013, 15:17:19 | #35
I agree with ShadowFacts on this one, props for using decent supporting evidence.

Perhaps im being too black and white about this, but I read the question and evaluated my answer by asking myself this question. "At level 1 , can I, using enough intelligence perform at the same level as a level 100" The answer is no, therefore I side with the fact this game gives more favor to -time- the player invested than the intelligence of said player.

Generally this is the mantra of any RPG though. That doesn't mean that having intelligence doesn't make you -better-, but it still requires time, and given enough time someone with significantly less intelligence could meet the same goes. The fact that UB's have timers is a great way to allow player skill (i dont really think intelligence is even the correct word here) to accomplish the task faster than someone of less Wakfu skill.


I've played several MMO games where while time invested -helped-, player intelligence actually was the determining factor. The combat was real time, required a player to adapt as combat progressed, and was more focused on state effects and the combination of them to cause death. Because you gained a marginal amount of HP per level and you only had 3 gear slots, there wasn't a mile wide gap between your veteran player and a "newbie". This allowed an intelligent player to win typically because they truly had more skill, not because they'd ground out the levels/gear. The game by the way was Achaea, and is IMO still one of the best combat systems I've ever seen.

Chess i believe was mentioned in an early post and I think its another good example of a game where skill/intelligence > time invested.

Again, I'm not saying wakfu doesn't require skill and intelligence, and i think its obvious a smart person will have have a significant advantage over someone who isn't, but I keep seeing the comment in these posts to the effect of "of course you have to invest time", and IMO that immediately points to the fact that Wakfu caters to those who invest their time, not their intelligence. Your intelligence is simply reducing the -amount- of time you have to invest.


Featherless Piwi * Member Since 2013-05-07
posté May 16, 2013, 15:44:33 | #36
For those of you who are complaining about the need to power level and how classes are not good with out end game gear.

Might I suggest you have fun playing the insane amount of low level dungeons and move up a natural pace and enjoy the ENTIRE game instead of complaining about not being able to kill magmog after a week.

Because let me tell you, the most fun I have had in this game was slowly working my way up the content struggling with each dungeon.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté May 16, 2013, 16:31:49 | #37
@Stryvve, I am not even disagreeing with that btw, just to make this clear. Of course we are playing a game that is focussed on grinding and working your way up by investing time.

I am basically just trying to find a proportionality here in particular for the point where you achieved a certain status quo. Then the skill starts to play a role (or rather here it definitely shows since a threshold is reached where equipment cannot compensate for mistakes made anymore) and I wanted to mostly argue against players flat out denying the involvment of strategical and tactical skill in Wakfu.


I am not sure why the grinding and working your way up part is getting so much criticism here though. Those are very much standard mechanics for online RPGs. There are other games if you just want to test your skill vs the one of other players like FPS or RTS (or MOBAs, but seriously fuck those).


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2011-05-04
posté May 16, 2013, 16:40:08 | #38
I think the main problem here is that while time invested is very easy to quantify, skill or intelligence is not (you can claim IQ tests or win/lose ratios or anything are good methods of quantifying skill or intelligence, but these methods are fairly flawed), and it's certainly not easy to determine what proportion of 'success' (a fairly abstract concept in itself) is down to one factor or the other...

I don't agree with the analogy of chess here, nor the analogy of lvl 1 compared to lvl 100. Intelligence surely plays a huge role in succeeding at chess, but so does experience, and this is clearly down to time invested. Don't try and tell me a super smart person who has only just learnt the rules of chess (your 'level 1') and is playing his first game will be victorious against an average person who has played over 1000 games and spent TIME reading about the standard openings (your 'level 100')!

If you ask me, the fact of the matter is that the very question we are all seeking to answer is flawed! It's not a question of brains vs. time investment at all. Intelligence means that you don't need to invest as much time to reach the same point.

If we go back to the chess analogy, the genius won't take 1000 games to reach the same level of skill as the experienced average intelligence player. He will get there much faster. The same is true for wakfu. The smart players learn tricks that help them defeat foes more easily, they work out strategies to level up more quickly (if they wish to do so), and they will acquire end game equipment more easily.

Success is not a case of brains vs time investment, and you cannot proportionally designate X% of success to be down to time and Y% down to brains, because success is more like time investment multiplied by brains!

Hope that made sense.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté May 16, 2013, 16:46:17 | #39
I pretty much agree with that statement btw, the whole question seemed a little moot to me. You have to approach this topic differently and Billo made a good first step.

As a follower of classic sociological theories I am kinda against using terms like some natural talent or genius here though, I would pretty much argue it is all education and experience in whatever form. (This might go a little far right now though and psychology students will hate me for this. ^^)

So yes, in my opinion in the end time is the most important factor, but not time as the others try to argue here. More time that was used to develop ones mind.

For example can you learn how to learn. That is what I meant by pointing out that a critical stance towards your own actions during a strategy game will let you improve a lot faster than when you just always blame luck or how much more the successful person grinded than you. Try to find and analyze the mistakes you made and you will see what a big improvement that can mean in a game like Wakfu. You don't need to be a born genius to do that.

I think you can see where I am going with this.


This post has been edited by Shaleigh1 - May 16, 2013, 16:50:01.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-12-11
posté May 16, 2013, 18:11:14 | #40
I hope you take the time to read all this. I know it's a lot.

  • Skill/Intelligence directly impacts the time needed to achieve a goal in Wakfu.
  • Time spent achieving goals in Wakfu does not directly impact your skill/intelligence.

I'm using the terms, skill/intelligence, in this context: A players level of performance. People preform at different levels for everything. Sports, gaming, or politics, it doesn't matter.

I think most of us claiming skill/intelligence is important are ignoring the grind from 1-100+ and focusing on level cap. Players need to employ tactics while leveling up just as much as at level cap. There are many dungeons to take part in. I'm ignoring Power leveling because at some point you'll be testing yourself against appropriate level content. The time it takes a player to get there isn't a factor when considering the skill/intelligence needed for an encounter.

I'd say you're being too black & white about it Boredom. I agree there is a minimum amount of time required to reach certain goals. So without spending that time you can't accomplish a goal. Making X amount of time in game necessary and Skill/Intelligence needed subjective. Every player will require different amounts of each.

Comparing Real time shooters or any active battle system in a MMO to Wakfu is irrelevant. They all require different levels of skill/intelligence. The time given by each game to make those decisions and button presses is just a factor in the amount of skill/intelligence the game requires. It sounds like Boredom places a higher value (challenges YOU more) on real time game play. I'm sure some people find the number of variables needed to be considered in Wakfu (chess) a tougher challenge than certain twitch style games.

Experience doesn't guarantee a person has a better knowledge and understanding of something. A person has to learn from those past experiences and make the appropriate adjustment.

Billo, you're comparison of a person new to the game of chess and one who's played 1000 games is incorrect. Both of these chess players will be facing each other on equal footing. Just because it took one person 1000 games to reach their skill/intelligence with chess... does not mean it will take another person that same amount of time. There are plenty of games I've played for the first time and beat someone who has much more experience.

Question:
The OP asks, "if the intelligence of the person matters". Matters how? The following is how I interpret the OP's question. Can a person of any skill/intelligence level, given enough time in game, EQUAL (maybe surpass) a person who is skilled/intelligent in Wakfu.

Answer:
Both these players can get the same, best, end game gear. If that's all you care about, to each his own. These two players are not guaranteed to preform at the same level.


This post has been edited by Gynrei - May 16, 2013, 18:13:29.