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Brains vs time investment
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-05
posté May 17, 2013, 21:49:08 | #61
I am actually with Billo on that one btw. Winning in a game of skill against a veteran is highly unlikely in my opinion and if it happens it often has something to do with a luck factor existing in said game.

I mentioned the ability to learn how to learn earlier. I think that is a crucial skill for gamers (and certainly in general too) to pick up on. You can learn how to question yourself and your actions and learn from your mistakes. If you constantly do that then you will always have an edge against newcomers even if you are not a natural born genius (I don't believe in the existence of genius at all, but that i sa whole other topic).

I have learned so so much about the game I would have never imagined as a newbie once I started multi accounting. Just seeing how other characters work and how they interact with eachother teaches you to avoid a lot of mistakes and a new player simply cannot know about any of those synergies.

Nontheless at least this is an interesting discussion and not some name calling


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2005-10-18
posté May 18, 2013, 12:43:45 | #62

Quote (Gynrei @ 17 May 2013 18:37) *

@Billo: I'm confused, you find it unlikely a person new to a game can beat a veteran yet you claim a genius can learn the game much faster. How do you determine that genius can't surpass the vet first try? How many tries might it take? You don't know because it all depends on the skill level of the vet and how well the new player picks it up. I'll say it again. Experience does not guarantee someone has more skill or knowledge. You might place the odds in the vets favor, but it's not a certainty.
Well sure it's not guaranteed as such. There does come a point where it is no longer useful to call a probability (for example 99.99%) uncertain, and I do think that's the case in chess, which is such a complex game it really is incredibly unlikely that someone who just learnt the rules will be able to beat a veteran.

Perhaps it would take the genius only 10 games to reach the level of skill the veteran reached in 1000 games, but in my analogy the number of games is supposed to represent the time taken to reach 'level 100' or whatever, rather than the number of games representing the level in any way. In this way I'm trying to point out that a smarter person would reach lvl 100 more quickly than an average person, but both people need to invest some amount of time.

This is why I think it is flawed to say that time invested is the only thing that matters and skill/intelligence doesn't matter (I know you didn't say this, but the following is my general conclusion in this thread If skill/intelligence is able to reduce the time invested to reach the same power, and we all agree that time invested does have a large impact on power in the game, then skill/intelligence surely also must have a large impact on power in the game, by reducing the time investment required to reach the same power.


Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-02-28
posté May 18, 2013, 14:10:40 | #63
If a player is starting , it should spend his time not grinding gear, but mining for Kamas. When you aim for higher gear , like 105+, eg.: frigost items, you can have as much kamas as you want, but there won't be many people selling rare gear. So I supose after you get your starting gear, spend time farming the end game one  


This post has been edited by Sargent-Wiggest - May 18, 2013, 14:11:22.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2010-11-04
posté May 18, 2013, 16:55:41 | #64
The idea of chess having a 'time invested' is nonsense - there is no 'time invested' in chess. Experience/skill/strategy etc. are all entirely different things from grinding equipment/levels.

The equivalent would be if there were some kind of way to track how many games you've played in chess and then 'level up' some of their pieces based on how many games a player has played. There is no way to 'restart from level 1' in chess, in wakfu it is possible to start over from level 1 as an experienced player - people are trying to compare experience to actual statistical benefits, which is a very flawed way to view this.


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2012-12-07
posté May 19, 2013, 03:36:26 | #65
Of course Intelligence matters, it greatly improves your damage output when you have a fire build, though you have to grind that up too (joke).


Squited Arachnee * Member Since 2012-04-19
posté May 19, 2013, 07:04:45 | #66
What's that term used again? ... Oh yeah! Knowledge is Power.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2005-10-18
posté May 19, 2013, 15:00:19 | #67

Quote (Onamuk @ 18 May 2013 16:55) *
The idea of chess having a 'time invested' is nonsense - there is no 'time invested' in chess. Experience/skill/strategy etc. are all entirely different things from grinding equipment/levels.

The equivalent would be if there were some kind of way to track how many games you've played in chess and then 'level up' some of their pieces based on how many games a player has played. There is no way to 'restart from level 1' in chess, in wakfu it is possible to start over from level 1 as an experienced player - people are trying to compare experience to actual statistical benefits, which is a very flawed way to view this.
Firstly, I used chess as an example as someone had used it previously. Your first section seems to rely on the assumption that because real life experience (knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone) is not exactly the same thing as in game experience (a points system which tracks your current success and time spent in the game, providing you with progression through the game), and because the latter relies on time invested, that the former somehow does not rely on time invested. This does not follow.

I agree that experience, skill and strategy are not the same as grinding equipment or levels, although I don't agree that the former plays no part in wakfu - there is certainly an element of skill involved in the game, as PvP matches can probably show you.

There is no time invested in chess? Are you trying to say that a player can never improve at playing chess by taking the time to play more and more, or read strategies etc.? This is clearly incorrect.

The second section of your response also misses a few points. For one thing, the point of my analogy was not to say that chess is the same thing as wakfu. If they were the same thing there would be no point in using an analogy. I was pointing out that in chess, as in wakfu, intelligence allows players to advance more quickly.

A player starting a new wakfu character at level 1 does have lower power than at level 100, but this is where the validity of your argument ends. No one is really trying to equate real experience to experience points in wakfu. When you start a new character at level 1, you have a wealth of game experience on where to level your characters, which spells are the most effective, etc. and this knowledge means that you will do better than a new player.

The experience points system merely sets a minimum limit for the time spent in wakfu to achieve a certain power, but clever planning can reduce this limit, and smart builds can increase your power above an equal (or even higher) leveled opponent.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2010-11-13
posté February 09, 2014, 21:12:13 | #68
Well... i actually think the skills you need in Wakfu are mostly knowledge (What Build you go for, resistances, how do mobs work, which gear etc.) and some Basic Strat skills.
Once you get the hang of fighting a Boss or UB you will mostly just repeat it the
whole time, like in the most MMORPG´s...
And i Wakfu is honestly really slow paced in most aspects.
Intelligent in this game could mean that you know how to gain Experience effectively and faster then some other People, or know which classes are effectiv for a dungeon and stuff...
But in the end you don´t need to be super Smart or a high-skilled Player to Level up and drop stuff.
The First and important thing that you need to become a Viable Character in Wakfu is still (and maybe will ever be :| ) Time... It consumes a lot of time and energy.
Even if you are Really Smart and a Gaming Veteran you will have to do Lots of
Grind anyways to get the Levels and even more important, the Gear!

So even a Player who just derp around and don´t take the Game serious can reach Max lvl and get decent gear, even if it takes maybe more Time than for some others.
So there will be definately a difference between the Top Notch Wakfu Players and the ones derping around, but the Skill Gap won´t be that High like in some other Games.

In Wakfu its mostly about the Grind...


Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-01-13
posté February 09, 2014, 21:23:08 | #69
Please don't bump nearly year old threads.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-03-30
posté February 09, 2014, 22:15:20 | #70
Interesting to see the state of the game, nearly a year after this thread had stopped receiving replies.

One point I brought up was that "wakfu doesn't reward tactics".. and here we are "now" with a challenge system for battles that can increase your wisdom/prospecting.

While I could say kudos to this, and praise Ankama for listening to our complaints. At the same time, I look at the PP/Wisdom "caps" and loot table revamp being forgotten.

Perhaps they're trying to turn wakfu into a tactical game.. but one could only hope they hire more experienced devs/programers to avoid this "trend" of "one step forward, two steps back".

@Dan1e7, thanks for the perspective (by necroing this thread).


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2010-11-13
posté February 09, 2014, 22:26:26 | #71

Quote (ShadowFacts @ 09 February 2014 22:15) *
Interesting to see the state of the game, nearly a year after this thread had stopped receiving replies.

One point I brought up was that "wakfu doesn't reward tactics".. and here we are "now" with a challenge system for battles that can increase your wisdom/prospecting.

While I could say kudos to this, and praise Ankama for listening to our complaints. At the same time, I look at the PP/Wisdom "caps" and loot table revamp being forgotten.

Perhaps they're trying to turn wakfu into a tactical game.. but one could only hope they hire more experienced devs/programers to avoid this "trend" of "one step forward, two steps back".

@Dan1e7, thanks for the perspective (by necroing this thread).
I think there literally are "tactics" in this game... but just pretty basic ones imo.
The main Tactic in a combat mostly is just to know which enemy you can hurt the most with your spells related to your Elements. I saw even UB´s and Dungeon Bosses just beat by literally simple tactics.
Or a Group beating wa wabbit just by bringing an Tank Sacrier in to lock the Boss and 2 Enemys while thorwing the Damage to the others first. Another example which show that the Gear is mostly what decides if you can beat something or not...


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-03-30
posté February 09, 2014, 22:44:08 | #72

Quote (Dan1e7 @ 09 February 2014 22:26) *

Quote (ShadowFacts @ 09 February 2014 22:15) *
Interesting to see the state of the game, nearly a year after this thread had stopped receiving replies.

One point I brought up was that "wakfu doesn't reward tactics".. and here we are "now" with a challenge system for battles that can increase your wisdom/prospecting.

While I could say kudos to this, and praise Ankama for listening to our complaints. At the same time, I look at the PP/Wisdom "caps" and loot table revamp being forgotten.

Perhaps they're trying to turn wakfu into a tactical game.. but one could only hope they hire more experienced devs/programers to avoid this "trend" of "one step forward, two steps back".

@Dan1e7, thanks for the perspective (by necroing this thread).
I think there literally are "tactics" in this game... but just pretty basic ones imo.
The main Tactic in a combat mostly is just to know which enemy you can hurt the most with your spells related to your Elements. I saw even UB´s and Dungeon Bosses just beat by literally simple tactics.
Or a Group beating wa wabbit just by bringing an Tank Sacrier in to lock the Boss and 2 Enemys while thorwing the Damage to the others first. Another example which show that the Gear is mostly what decides if you can beat something or not...

Indeed,

On the Asia server, we've got new players using lv120 - lv140 characters to plow through UBs with little to no effort and posting their achievements on the forums.

Honestly, to those "new players" it was prolly an awesome battle.. but the more "experienced" players (vets from other servers) don't appreciate the public attention and are going so far as to criticize these "new players" of not being worthy of bragging about anything.

IE: Saying they abused characters with levels/gear that was well over the content level of the UB.

Funny enough, this is the exact thing that many of the people in this thread were denying and are completely oblivious to.

Perhaps now those people will finally understand that Wakfu has ALWAYS been like this.. where the more your grind, the less intelligence is required.

IE: Brains < Time Investment.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sidenote:

If a Mod does get around to this thread and wants a deeper understanding of how to present this "problem" to the french devs.

I recommend this video on Power Creep:
Click here


This post has been edited by ShadowFacts - February 09, 2014, 23:00:08.
Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2010-11-13
posté February 09, 2014, 22:58:10 | #73

Quote (ShadowFacts @ 09 February 2014 22:44) *

Indeed,

On the Asia server, we've got new players using lv120 - lv140 characters to plow through UBs with little to no effort and posting their achievements on the forums.

Honestly, to those "new players" it was prolly an awesome battle.. but the more "experienced" players (vets from other servers) don't appreciate the public attention and are going so far as to criticize these "new players" of not being worthy of bragging about anything.

IE: Saying they abused characters with levels/gear that was well over the content level of the UB.

Funny enough, this is the exact thing that many of the people in this thread were denying and are completely oblivious to.
Guess thats also the Reason why some tactics (for example Dragon Pig) kept secret at the time People started to beat him... cause once you know how to do it, its just a matter of having the right classes and decent Gear to do it. In this case its literally going back to the move and cast your 3 Spells every 2-3 Minutes your in action routine...

In this discussion i just scare myself pretty hard by realizing how simply Wakfu in reality is... even though its called "The Strategical MMORPG"  


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-03-30
posté February 09, 2014, 23:04:38 | #74

Quote (Dan1e7 @ 09 February 2014 22:58) *

Quote (ShadowFacts @ 09 February 2014 22:44) *

Indeed,

On the Asia server, we've got new players using lv120 - lv140 characters to plow through UBs with little to no effort and posting their achievements on the forums.

Honestly, to those "new players" it was prolly an awesome battle.. but the more "experienced" players (vets from other servers) don't appreciate the public attention and are going so far as to criticize these "new players" of not being worthy of bragging about anything.

IE: Saying they abused characters with levels/gear that was well over the content level of the UB.

Funny enough, this is the exact thing that many of the people in this thread were denying and are completely oblivious to.
Guess thats also the Reason why some tactics (for example Dragon Pig) kept secret at the time People started to beat him... cause once you know how to do it, its just a matter of having the right classes and decent Gear to do it. In this case its literally going back to the move and cast your 3 Spells every 2-3 Minutes your in action routine...

In this discussion i just scare myself pretty hard by realizing how simply Wakfu in reality is... even though its called "The Strategical MMORPG"

Well, if you've got some ideas or just wanna help.. you can always take it upon yourself to join the APAC community and try to get things changed for the better. (we always need new and intelligent people) :3

IE: wakfu.asia/en/forum/3-general-discussion/1552-stop-ganking?poid=7493Click here

Just create a suggestion topic and ask for feedback, Ren and the rest of the mods are very active in their replies.


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-01-12
posté February 09, 2014, 23:33:43 | #75
Well, this game is a strategical MMO - as soon as you find a strategy you farm the hell out of it. You can't forget that capabilities of current AI are very limited, it is not able to adapt to the situation. If something worked once, it can be repeated. It's a border Ankama can't really surpass. The phenomen of strategies being kept in secret is obvious and natural, moreover it's a proof of some creativity or luck of the players who managed to find it. We can safely say that these players had some advantage over others, sometimes it might indeed be the "brains" you talk about here. Abnormal signs of invention are rewarded in every aspect of the game (every aspect of everything ever :p), but the game is simple enough itself to detract benefits from it.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2010-11-13
posté February 09, 2014, 23:34:43 | #76

Quote (ShadowFacts @ 09 February 2014 23:04) *

Well, if you've got some ideas or just wanna help.. you can always take it upon yourself to join the APAC community and try to get things changed for the better. (we always need new and intelligent people) :3

IE: wakfu.asia/en/forum/3-general-discussion/1552-stop-ganking?poid=7493Click here

Just create a suggestion topic and ask for feedback, Ren and the rest of the mods are very active in their replies.
Well... i already thought about joining APAC now for real... since im pretty much done with my last Server Amara (The German one... yeah it exists, silently!)
But there is also those big Timezone issue... guess People playing on APAC are either 6-7 Hours ahead or behind my Timezone in Germany xD
I Like that APAC got his own dev team, and Mods which actually are really read the Posts in the Forum.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-03-30
posté February 09, 2014, 23:42:50 | #77

Quote (Dan1e7 @ 09 February 2014 23:34) *

Quote (ShadowFacts @ 09 February 2014 23:04) *

Well, if you've got some ideas or just wanna help.. you can always take it upon yourself to join the APAC community and try to get things changed for the better. (we always need new and intelligent people) :3

IE: wakfu.asia/en/forum/3-general-discussion/1552-stop-ganking?poid=7493Click here

Just create a suggestion topic and ask for feedback, Ren and the rest of the mods are very active in their replies.
Well... i already thought about joining APAC now for real... since im pretty much done with my last Server Amara (The German one... yeah it exists, silently!)
But there is also those big Timezone issue... guess People playing on APAC are either 6-7 Hours ahead or behind my Timezone in Germany xD
I Like that APAC got his own dev team, and Mods which actually are really read the Posts in the Forum.

I live in NA (Florida).. and even still, I see people amassing around the outposts and out in the world at all times of the day. If you do elect to join, hit me up ingame and I'll give ya some starter gear/bread ta help get ya started.

I'd also recommend joining Brakmar (best nation with an awesome gov) and/or joining the guild Sanctuary.

All that being said, I feel you and I are now a bit off topic. So I'll conclude my "solicitation" of APAC and let other people discuss the topic at hand.

*In closing, feel free ta drop a topic or two on the APAC forums if you do join. :3


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-11-11
posté February 10, 2014, 13:16:48 | #78
What a coincidence.

this thread pops back up, so lets welcome it to 2014!

there are two strats in the game.

lock tank and smash everything

OR

rush and smash everything

go ahead and argue, maybe some fights are different like shhhudoku and magmog, but all in all, its just the same shit, different drops.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2010-11-13
posté February 10, 2014, 14:48:31 | #79

Quote (HateSpawn @ 10 February 2014 13:16) *
What a coincidence.

this thread pops back up, so lets welcome it to 2014!

there are two strats in the game.

lock tank and smash everything

OR

rush and smash everything

go ahead and argue, maybe some fights are different like shhhudoku and magmog, but all in all, its just the same shit, different drops.
Finally one more who understand what we are talking about!

And i would say shhhudoku would belong into the "lock tank and smash everything" section
Beside the possibility for the buff maybe...


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-11-11
posté February 10, 2014, 15:07:34 | #80

Quote (Dan1e7 @ 10 February 2014 14:48) *

Quote (HateSpawn @ 10 February 2014 13:16) *
What a coincidence.

this thread pops back up, so lets welcome it to 2014!

there are two strats in the game.

lock tank and smash everything

OR

rush and smash everything

go ahead and argue, maybe some fights are different like shhhudoku and magmog, but all in all, its just the same shit, different drops.
Finally one more who understand what we are talking about!

And i would say shhhudoku would belong into the "lock tank and smash everything" section
Beside the possibility for the buff maybe...
Yeah, the buff would be the difference.

vs magmog which you dont need lock for, just four bodies.