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Community Opinion: End Game Fight Mechanics
Scary Polter * Member Since 2012-04-17
posté December 25, 2013, 09:03:19 | #1
Community Opinion: End Game Fight Mechanics I've spent a lot of time doing end game fights, dungeons, ect lately.... and there is one theme that every mob from Whisper Island on seems to share.

Unbelievably specific and in some cases downright atrocious gimmicks. I just finished Lenald dungeon again so I'll cover this topic specifically. All I can do after this run is feel disappointed by the overall design, much like I am with most of the recent dungeons.

Out of sheer frustration let me list out all the specific mechanics of the boss fight (That I know of... and believe me I found one of them mid fight and was just like "Who the hell made this thinking it would be fun?")

Midget Make You Hate Your Life Lenalds: Cannot be damaged from further than 3 spaces away, cannot be stabilized by Ether, backstab teleport, swap, have about 65 MP to run across the entire map, steal AP.
Mediocre Lenalds: Cannot be damaged from the front, can swap your party members in a line.
Grandpa Stupidface Lenalds: Can only be damaged from the front, natural 10% health coag per turn heal other lenalds for somewhere between 10-25% health.
Fatty McStupidface Lenalds: Steal AP, reflect all damage done to them to anyone in melee.

All Lenalds: Jutsus... I don't feel like explaining them they're ridiculously complicated in themselves if you rainbow damage any Lenald it does a bunch of crap, hits your entire party like 50 times and heals a bunch, under 20% hp or whatever 1turn armor of coag for 100% of HP.

Boss specific mechanics: Start of turn invincibility tiles go under all Lenalds. Reflects damage you do to Lenalds when in melee.. Then you get to play against him till he transforms.... THEN you need to step in a bloody tile every other turn to be able to damage him meaning it automatically takes TWICE as many turns.

Who in their right mind said "You know what our Tactical MMORPG needs? A fight that is this unbelievably over-complicated." It's absolutely beatable, but it is absolutely _NOT_ fun. Every time I run this dungeon (2 to 4 hours later) makes me want to not play Wakfu for an entire day. It's just that bad. When someone asks me to run it, I cringe and grit my teeth, let me reiterate, it's THAT bad.

and that's JUST Lenalds, which from my understanding is the easiest of anything on the island... WOW.

It makes me think this is all I have to look forward to in the future of the game and that makes me very unhappy. Giving mobs so many unobtainable bonuses (bonuses players cannot achieve through any means) and such overly specific mechanics makes fights much, much longer, dungeons painful and the game not fun.

Am I the only person who feels like playing only old content when new content comes out? Once you outlevel content by 20-30 levels and are far overgeared for the instance, it's not so bad anymore, which is why I prefer to do that because everything new that comes out makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

/rant

That out of the way, I'm curious how the general forum-going community feels about the direction the game is going as far as Player v Environment is concerned. Is anyone having loads of fun with these crazy mechanics? Is there anyone out there who has been DYING to have all their MP stolen and then a death tile placed under them?

If not, how does this always seem to happen? How do the devs end up with such a different perspective than the player. Why is there always feedback requests for revamped content, but never feedback requests for other in game mechanics, specifically how players would like the general curve of P v E to work?

/rant of /rant
-Madd


Ecstatic Whisperer * Member Since 2006-01-31
posté December 25, 2013, 09:26:22 | #2
Harebourg's Tower was the last good dungeon they added to the game. Everything on Wabbit is awful forever.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2006-10-23
posté December 25, 2013, 09:38:37 | #3
And I thought most of the Chillberg dungeons were annoying... Remember when people complained about Brrrblis and Ice Cracklers? Soon they'll keep adding so many states to monsters that there will be only one specific way to kill something, that only a few classes will be able to achievement. It'll be like Dragon Pig for normal end game monsters. x.x


Scary Polter * Member Since 2012-02-09
posté December 25, 2013, 09:43:07 | #4
I don't have anything against complicated content as long as:
1) It doesn't take few hours to do 1 dungeon. And if it does, the drop rates of items aren't ridiculously low
2) You don't need specific classes to do it, you can just get 6 random classes on the right level and have a chance to finish every dungeon.


Otherwise developers failed their job and it's next to impossible to farm high level content for anyone, but multiaccounters.


This post has been edited by krowakot - December 25, 2013, 09:44:03.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-03-01
posté December 25, 2013, 10:00:56 | #5
I'm still not convinced that this whole "you must be a certain class to do things" is real. This could just be because i'm in an "elite" guild and we're able to run anything we want basically with whatever class combos we want but it honestly has yet to be an issue with very little exceptions like summon osas i'm fairly certain summon osas are the only exception to this.


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2013-03-18
posté December 25, 2013, 11:34:54 | #6
Only if Ankama developer team invest their time running all dungeons they have made with same estimate party-level as they want. With the goal to keep dungeon last less than an hour.and always think about worst case scenarios, then they should see how they should fix it. Either same mechanic but lower HP or lower mechanic effects.

I guess they dont.

If I'm ankama team I'd make a form like...
Dungeon name :
Estimate level : If say lv100 mean the full party of level 100 people should be able to run with in Standard time.
Standard time invest in this dungeon : imo 45 mins is standard.
[x]players effect : Special effect in each party if it's not full or in specific number.
Number of room and time per fight : 10mins a fight *3 + 15 mins(Boss) maybe
Shine Classes : Honestly, since you cant avoid using only certain class. you might want to just go ahead and make some class look good in each dungeon. you can aiming for about 4 classes in each dun. they cant run this dun well cuz you dont make them shine in this dun? no prob, they run other dun and exchange item with other. cuz at least it's not only eni/enu/sac who have to most chance to run every dungeon.
Dull Classes : Opposite in Shine classes. But doesnt mean they cant run this dungeon, its' mean they might made it longer than standard time.

etc etc.


This post has been edited by Hydin106 - December 25, 2013, 11:55:33.
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2012-03-25
posté December 25, 2013, 11:47:52 | #7
I agree that the "you must be a certain class to do x" is largely a myth, there are however some exceptions. There are some classes which are so disadvantaged against certain mechanics that taking them is a bit insane really.

A lot of that can be fixed by going hybrid and making yourself as versatile as possible but if you run a class or build that does not have a cheap retreat mechanism (just as an example) that is a real problem against certain mobs. Also certain fights do require certain key figures such as the lock tank, the healer or the shielder and let's face it - some classes are better suited than others to fill these roles and will thus be much more likely to get a spot.

While I do think experimenting and getting more creative with team compositions would benefit a lot of people, I also think Ankama is prone to creating fights biased toward - or against - certain class combinations. This is reinforced by certain strategies being labelled abusive if they heavily rely on exploiting a certain class mechanic (and yes I do agree there are some broken tactics out there). They need to work on improving that pattern and keep making classes even more versatile in my opinion.


Overweighted Chafer * Member Since 2011-08-14
posté December 25, 2013, 14:33:10 | #8
at first: game becomes more casual and less reminiscent of the sandbox. Fight's become more borina and tactical and often have only 1 idea - yahe +600dmg bonus and press atack button. Amid such gloom dungeon foxes, looks like a breath of fresh air... If you can do it, stop and ask you: "maybe i do somthing wrong?"

second:
Quote
2) You don't need specific classes to do it, you can just get 6 random classes on the right level and have a chance to finish every dungeon.

dam... no... you always need that @#%%!!! eniripsa. You can't do serious dungeon without this winged bitch


and the third: men... in 60 lvl i have uniqe panda and sacr, couz i have not a popular special skill... look at 140 char 7 of 10 special ability is already maxed, all have similar sets and builds ... =_=
I hope ANKAM introduces additional special skills in future


This post has been edited by milordDen - December 25, 2013, 14:34:48.
Short Strich * Member Since 2013-02-12
posté December 25, 2013, 15:10:11 | #9

Quote (milordDen @ 25 December 2013 14:33) *
dam... no... you always need that @#%%!!! eniripsa. You can't do serious dungeon without this winged bitch
You can replace eniripsa with any other class with healing and get ko reversal from a xelor but there's no alternative to eniraser's special effects removal. I think more classes should have access to it and less states given by high level monsters should be arbitrarily uneniraseable.


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2013-08-17
posté December 25, 2013, 15:37:23 | #10
The reason why some content is hard is because ankama intentionally nerfs us but forgets to nerf the monsters.
Blindness ,for example, some mobs still have that, and its freakin easy for them to apply it on us.
Karch: Barrel cant be pushed, to lock people in any more, but i dont get why pandas can't carry missiz frizz, or even DP anymore.
Invulnerability: we had one class that could cancel out dmg Iop, they got nerfed. Panda are the last ones (that i know off) that can cancel dmg, but that's definitely going to get nerfed. Now we see mobs that can just stand end their turn next to each other and not suffer any damage.

The boss immunities wont/ dont make much sense anymore. You look at it and their are immuned to Madness. Madness?, sleepy ? that mechanic that only worked 1/3 times, and i'm pretty sure cannot be applied by any classes anymore. I dont even get why bosses are immuned to stun anymore. Boss all have crazy will power ( yes this is still in the game) if an iop where to try to stun a boss he's probably have less than 5 % chance to actually stun the boss Let say a boss has 50 will power and will power works like crits. the Boss have 50 % chance to dodge the effect or will reduce the the % chance of applying the state by 50 %. either way.

The reason why we are mostly struggling is because of these limitations. This limitation make the game all about 'who can hit the hardest' vs ' who can use all his abilities to his advantage'. The problem with 'who can hit the hardest' is you often need the gear for high lvl dung to be able to reach the acceptable % dmg for it and thats when the 4 hrs long dungs happens.

Ankama just needs to remember why WP points were made. They were made to set a limit on our active specs; we dont need anything else limiting their use.

-Bee


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-03-01
posté December 25, 2013, 15:48:14 | #11

Quote (Beezle @ 25 December 2013 15:37) *

Ankama just needs to remember why WP points were made. They were made to set a limit on our active specs; we dont need anything else limiting their use.

-Bee
This is literally the most true thing I have read on these forums in a very long time.


Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-10-31
posté December 25, 2013, 16:03:00 | #12

Quote (Beezle @ 25 December 2013 15:37) *
The reason why some content is hard is because ankama intentionally nerfs us but forgets to nerf the monsters.
Blindness ,for example, some mobs still have that, and its freakin easy for them to apply it on us.
Karch: Barrel cant be pushed, to lock people in any more, but i dont get why pandas can't carry missiz frizz, or even DP anymore.
Well logically, no panda can carry Dragon Pig.


Dokushuuuuu * Member Since 2008-01-09
posté December 25, 2013, 17:07:24 | #13

Quote (erisolsprite @ 25 December 2013 15:10) *

Quote (milordDen @ 25 December 2013 14:33) *
dam... no... you always need that @#%%!!! eniripsa. You can't do serious dungeon without this winged bitch
You can replace eniripsa with any other class with healing and get ko reversal from a xelor but there's no alternative to eniraser's special effects removal. I think more classes should have access to it and less states given by high level monsters should be arbitrarily uneniraseable.
Well, no, not really. Noone heals as good as water eni. Other classes healing may be good, but not THAT good. Fire Eni can heal very well, but only single target, Sadida can heal good, but need a lot of turns before summoning healing dolls and then, he doesn't have a control over what they heal. Unless you have two healing classes (other than water eni), it's impossible to do some dungs.

And no, other classes shouldn't be as good as Eni in what they do... Why should they? If you give other classes better heals, eniraser ect, then what's the point of Eni? Every class should have something special, something only they can do, if you take the best heals and support like eniraser from Eni, then what would she have to offer? It's like asking to give other classes Dolls from Sadi or +PP spells from Enu.


This post has been edited by Rokugatsu - December 25, 2013, 17:08:08.
Short Strich * Member Since 2012-04-24
posté December 25, 2013, 20:28:42 | #14
One word, zeorus.
He's the one who made all the UBs

He's probably the one being used to make all the new dungeons.

Spending 2-4 hours in lenald dungeon like madd said shows how they dont want many wakfu subscriptions. At the end of the day no one will subscribe for that. But its ok ankama is used to small servers.


Mister Winter Fashion Victim 2012 * Member Since 2012-12-20
posté December 25, 2013, 20:31:47 | #15
I wish penalty tiles were less punishing towards players and also affected enemies so that we could take advantage of them too. It's highly discouraging in a game of this genre.

• Mango


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2013-08-17
posté December 25, 2013, 20:43:50 | #16

Quote (SeriousBelly @ 25 December 2013 16:03) *

Quote (Beezle @ 25 December 2013 15:37) *
The reason why some content is hard is because ankama intentionally nerfs us but forgets to nerf the monsters.
Blindness ,for example, some mobs still have that, and its freakin easy for them to apply it on us.
Karch: Barrel cant be pushed, to lock people in any more, but i dont get why pandas can't carry missiz frizz, or even DP anymore.
Well logically, no panda can carry Dragon Pig.
(>.>) So no sac should be able to pull Dragon pig either? DP is a singe cell mob. The only counter single cell mob have against pull, carry, and transpo is having that mob stabilized. So no its not logica that you cannot carry Dragon Pig. The problem with carrying isnt the - resist the panda can give, nor the fact that it make kiting a lil easier; it's the fact that you could lock people and mobs in corners. Now it is no longer possible to do so with the barrel, so there is really no need to keep the whole " cannot be carried".
And if people some people still think its makes sense for "cannot be carried" to be there than read this:
To my knowledge there are currently two bosses than cannot be carried, Dragon pig and Missiz Freezz.

Dragon pig: has a TP that piratically covers the whole map. It's no LoS, so even if you could still lock him up ( unless there is an AI bug) there's nothing that will stop him from getting to you. whether you can or cannot carry DP will not affect the boss it will only allow some to reposition him where they want him to be...

Missiz frizz: has a lot of MP as long as she is in the middles of the map she can hit you anywhere. Has a no LoS attack that has an AoE on it. heck having a sac transpo ( more range) her away from group is more of a cheat than carrying and tossing her. You can try to lock frizz up, but even before the barrel nerf she could dispell it.

Ankama's making some dumb spontaneous decision


Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-01-22
posté December 25, 2013, 21:41:34 | #17

Quote (erisolsprite @ 25 December 2013 15:10) *

Quote (milordDen @ 25 December 2013 14:33) *
dam... no... you always need that @#%%!!! eniripsa. You can't do serious dungeon without this winged bitch
You can replace eniripsa with any other class with healing and get ko reversal from a xelor but there's no alternative to eniraser's special effects removal. I think more classes should have access to it and less states given by high level monsters should be arbitrarily uneniraseable.
Eniraser is worthless as a state removal. It doesn't remove anything anymore past Whispering Island. Yeah I know that's an exaggeration, but the amount of stuff you can't remove because Arbitrary is Ankama's middle and last name is appalling. What it does still do however is bug out Drhellzerker and make it not stack damage until reapplied.

I'm pretty sure I've made this exact thread in the past, worded differently. It's nice to see others agree as well.


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2013-04-05
posté December 25, 2013, 22:19:36 | #18
Whoever thought of Zwomwabbit mechanics just wants to see the world burn...
Instant death tiles, no mp, stabelized gwand pas. EVERYWHERE.

Wo Zwomwabits just kill all your ap/mp in an aoe.

The little ones teleport you across the map into a stack of instant death tiles.

Both the Gwandpas and Mid Wabbits steal all of your mp and summon instant death tiles in an aoe.
The Gwandpas just do it to hyper effect.

Also, Wo Zwomwabbits and Wo Gwandpas are glitched to always summon a lower tier Zwomwabbit even if you decompose them.

Oh, but it gets better. The only mechanic I see that heavily counters them is their ability to, on random, go brain dead and end their turn. That's what you are banking on.

Oh and one more complaint; the freaking zwomwabbit cape is an absolute joke. It's the only piece of the set to have fire/earth dmg instead of fire/wind damage. It's also the only piece of the set to have cmc damage instead of critical damage. It's also absolutely inferior to well-gwarded cape and its earth counterpart in every freaking way.

AND YET. The only way to get it is through a .1% drop in zwomwabbit dungeon. I don't even... :/
I feel so, so sorry for whoever gets this drop from anyone attempting this dungeon.


This post has been edited by Exelenore - December 25, 2013, 22:41:14.
Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2011-12-06
posté December 25, 2013, 22:57:22 | #19

Quote (Brokonaut @ 25 December 2013 20:31) *
I wish penalty tiles were less punishing towards players and also affected enemies so that we could take advantage of them too. It's highly discouraging in a game of this genre.

• Mango
Ya mean the way things used to be. ;~;


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-03-15
posté December 26, 2013, 02:16:02 | #20
they just cancelled the french wakfu mags

oh well..maybe azael will save wakfu.

Why can't all the new dungeons at wabbit island be 1 hour dungeons and then wa wabbit dungeon for the people who have 12 hours per day to dedicate to wakfu?

they need to stop making content for themselves, this content is for subscribers. Most suscribers dont want to be forced into a second job. A dungeon that takes more than 1 hour is a second job.