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Thoughts about raising PP Cap for Enutrofs?
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-12-11
posté January 30, 2014, 19:23:58 | #41

Quote (demonfoxassassin @ 30 January 2014 19:04) *
Gynrei is stating that it's part of the extra loot drop. S/he [I apologize for that]

He. And you are correct, I was using Blessing as another advantage to add to my argument. Jumper is correct as well, it's not a very useful ability either so i probably should have left it out.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-04-13
posté January 30, 2014, 21:16:23 | #42

Quote (Gynrei @ 30 January 2014 16:11) *
Giving Enu's a higher cap or more loot in other ways makes it more difficult for other classes to obtain the same loot as an Enu
Well duh... they're an enu -.- God forbid a class that specializes in dropping items actually drops more items...


Quote (Gynrei @ 30 January 2014 16:11) *
I gave you plenty of examples of how Enu's gain more loot over time than every other class. Maybe respond to some of those points next time. I don't want to change your mind. I've stated many possible situations that I feel are common enough to justify why i think Enu's get more loot than any other class.
It's like talking to a brick wall. I never said enus don't drop more across the board. I said that a 150pp enu drops the same as another class with 150pp, thus making pouches their only real benefit. Certain monsters cannot be pouched, meaning enus drop the same as other classes, which doesn't make sense for a class that's supposed to specialize in dropping more.


Quote (Gynrei @ 30 January 2014 16:11) *

Quote
You're honestly saying that it's faster for an enu to kill low lvl mobs than a cra?
No, I'm saying the difference between a Cra's killing speed and an Enu's is minor. Certainly not enough to justify saying you're better off using another class to farm loot.
Feel free to come and watch my cra Anyway, you just proved my point by saying cras are faster than enus.

As I said, if you want to discuss whether or not enus should or should not drop more then fair enough but you're arguing about facts.

In esscence my point was that enus aren't better than others at dropping certain things and then stated some cases where they were not. If you want to disagree that enus should be the best in all situations then that's fine but to deny clear facts makes no sense at all.


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté January 30, 2014, 21:40:46 | #43

Quote
I said that a 150pp enu drops the same as another class with 150pp
The only other time this will have some significance is inside a dungeon, even then its not guaranteed that the 2 challenges will be possible, or give you this much. If the issue is farming low lvl mats then why are you surprised that a damage dealing class is probably faster? I'm sure an earth enu can compete just as well with a cra, might be a little slower, but the extra base pp sounds like it'll makeup for it.


Quote
In esscence my point was that enus aren't better than others at dropping certain things and then stated some cases where they were not.
But theyre also better than other classes (damagedealingclasses) in terms of damage, and can also consistently (or if they spend a turn setting up, which is pretty easy in the final boss room) reach the pp cap without much effort.

I dont think theres much reason why an enu should have a higher pp or even drop more. They benefit from prospecting through their passives so its likely you'll have higher prospecting than everyone else anyway. But they shouldn't also have a higher pp cap.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-12-11
posté January 30, 2014, 21:41:05 | #44

Quote (XjumperX @ 30 January 2014 21:16) *
It's like talking to a brick wall.




Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2012-10-15
posté January 30, 2014, 22:33:32 | #45
What baffles me is how people define the term "Treasure Hunter".


Treasure Hunters don't pick up [or in this case, drop] everything they see, they search/look for what they set their eyes on. Coming out empty-handed is normal.


That said, my answer is still a no.


Edit: Even if you bring in the Crazy Prospector aspect, they usually go for the item that benefits them the most like the Treasure Hunter.


This post has been edited by demonfoxassassin - January 30, 2014, 22:46:13.
Scary Polter * Member Since 2011-04-26
posté January 30, 2014, 23:46:36 | #46
All points Gynrei and Jumper made are reasonable and true, if you consider their viewpoints. Seems our only problem is that I share Jumper's, which contradict Gynrei's. I will explain below.

Regarding the: "Enus can deal a heck lot of damage, it is stupid to ask for pp cap increase" argument.


Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 30 January 2014 21:40) *
The only other time this will have some significance is inside a dungeon, even then its not guaranteed that the 2 challenges will be possible, or give you this much. If the issue is farming low lvl mats then why are you surprised that a damage dealing class is probably faster? I'm sure an earth enu can compete just as well with a cra, might be a little slower, but the extra base pp sounds like it'll makeup for it.

But theyre also better than other classes (damagedealingclasses) in terms of damage, and can also consistently (or if they spend a turn setting up, which is pretty easy in the final boss room) reach the pp cap without much effort.

Quote (Gynrei @ 30 January 2014 16:11) *
No, I'm saying the difference between a Cra's killing speed and an Enu's is minor. Certainly not enough to justify saying you're better off using another class to farm loot.

I must disagree. I sometimes raced with my roommate's Iop and Earth Cras (Earth, not even Air). He really just breezes through the dungeons while keeping at a respectable level of prospecting (50~80pp).
And at the italic text: What the ...? Seriously?

About enus and their difference in gear preference compare to other classes. In my impression wearing pp gear instead of dd while not having your damage drops is much harder than what you seem to make it out to be... May be I just suck?

@Gynrei: I have not got the chance to play fire enus past level 40, so I will trust what you said, unless I found out otherwise in the future. Yet I still can't be convinced that setting up mines is an easy task. (Back in the release of snow land, I used fire spells to detect sram chaffers, and I do have experience with how fire spells work.)

By the way, would you mind giving me fire enu pointers after they change the xp system for secondary characters? Am really bad at that branch.

Regarding what Enu should be like:


Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 30 January 2014 21:40) *
I dont think theres much reason why an enu should have a higher pp or even drop more. They benefit from prospecting through their passives so its likely you'll have higher prospecting than everyone else anyway. But they shouldn't also have a higher pp cap.

Back again at my argument: I would choose to deal A BIT less damage and having A BIT higher pp cap any day. Why? Because the treasure hunter class is slowly slowly becoming but another damage dealing class, losing all of their colors. These colors, Gynrei, is what I desire. And they are fading away.

inb4: Do I want to deal nice damage? I would not complain if I can. Do I want to discard all the thieving/item gathering characteristics/advantages to deal damage on par with dds? NO, never.

inb4+: Would I whine if they nerf Enu's damage hard in exchange of a little damage boost? Yes. Am I a d!*k? No, see the A BIT's?

Regarding how people are playing their enus:


Quote (demonfoxassassin @ 29 January 2014 16:00) *
As an Enutrof, extra loot is appreciated, but I feel it's rather unnecessary. As it stands now, the Enutrof is a dog that is forced to constantly dig up lots of crap, which is really pitiful. From Treasure Hunter to Fido with the click of the 'Confirm' button after giving it a name during Character Selection....-From an Enutrof

If you feel such stress from playing Enu, then, as a fellow Enu, my best advice for you is please stop playing Enus unless you can change this mindset. Idk how you feel but you are obviously not playing. Please, enjoy the class when you play. And tell the people who treat you like a dog shut up.
- From a friend who had been through the same crap.


This post has been edited by Kouromaro - January 31, 2014, 00:25:18.
Soft Crackler * Member Since 2013-05-10
posté January 30, 2014, 23:53:31 | #47
Wanting to buff enus is shortsighted. People make enus because they want more drops. They want more drops because the drop system is stupid and dropping things is ridiculously difficult. Half the people playing enu don't even like their class, that's pretty incongruous considering this is game supposed to be played for fun. Enus don't need buffing, they need nerfing, it's the drop system that needs a revamp.


Scary Polter * Member Since 2011-04-26
posté January 31, 2014, 00:16:03 | #48

Quote (Noobility @ 30 January 2014 23:53) *
Wanting to buff enus is shortsighted. People make enus because they want more drops. They want more drops because the drop system is stupid and dropping things is ridiculously difficult. Half the people playing enu don't even like their class, that's pretty incongruous considering this is game supposed to be played for fun. Enus don't need buffing, they need nerfing, it's the drop system that needs a revamp.

Such player succumbed to the impression that Enus are the best at dropping anything. As Jumper has discussed in details about, that is not entirely true.

They have also chosen to trade the enjoyment of playing the classes they love for dropping more item. Please accept tradeoffs. I have also known many players who chose not to have a single enu and are leading rather happy game life.

And if what people want is for every classes to be equally good at damaging and dropping items, I will forever disagree. Classes should keep the characteristics they are conceptualized with.


This post has been edited by Kouromaro - January 31, 2014, 00:35:05.
Not so Hairy Moon * Member Since 2012-01-22
posté January 31, 2014, 03:37:16 | #49

Quote
It's like talking to a brick wall. I never said enus don't drop more across the board. I said that a 150pp enu drops the same as another class with 150pp, thus making pouches their only real benefit. Certain monsters cannot be pouched, meaning enus drop the same as other classes, which doesn't make sense for a class that's supposed to specialize in dropping more.

This kind of line is why I try not to get involved in internet debates. You can sometimes go through pages and pages of discussion and see not one argument that isn't faulty logic.

Pouches are an enu's only real (What does that even mean?) benefit. Well, no. They can get PP a lot easier than other classes, so that's an advantage in convenience. They can also do it regardless of the battle: you can't always afford to wear PP gear in tough boss fights, but Enus will always get that cap even in non PP gear. That's an advantage.

Yeah some bosses can't be pouched. A very small amount of them. The vast majority can. That's another very real benefit.


Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-04-13
posté January 31, 2014, 11:42:56 | #50

Quote (Icekin @ 31 January 2014 03:37) *
Pouches are an enu's only real (What does that even mean?) benefit. Well, no. They can get PP a lot easier than other classes, so that's an advantage in convenience. They can also do it regardless of the battle: you can't always afford to wear PP gear in tough boss fights, but Enus will always get that cap even in non PP gear. That's an advantage.
Being able to hit the cap easier is not a real advantage. That's like putting in a dmg cap that all classes can achieve and then saying dmg classes with +150% dmg or w/e can hit the cap easier so they have an advantage. There are plenty of high lvl sets that allow you to hit 150pp and still do high dmg. Yes, there's a lack of air pp sets but that's a different discussion altogether.


Quote (Icekin @ 31 January 2014 03:37) *
Yeah some bosses can't be pouched. A very small amount of them. The vast majority can. That's another very real benefit.
And I said pouches were a benefit. However, look at the best endgame gear: ub, wab and relics. 2/3 of these cannot be pouched and it requires you to use a water spell, which can be annoying for a fire/earth enu especially with how the spell xp system works before hitting cap.

Again, I'm not saying that enus don't drop more on a whole. I'm not saying that the entire drop system isn't broken. Tbh I'm not a big fan of the cap in general. Yes it's a temporary fix because there was a problem but if you have 150pp (not just enus) then it doesn't really push you to try the harder ones. My best fights in dofus have been ones that I've attempted stupid challenges, almost died and then managed to come out with a win.


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté January 31, 2014, 12:59:10 | #51

Quote
And at the italic text: What the ...? Seriously?
What are you having trouble understanding?


Scary Polter * Member Since 2011-04-26
posté January 31, 2014, 16:50:32 | #52

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 31 January 2014 12:59) *

Quote
And at the italic text: What the ...? Seriously?
What are you having trouble understanding?
While Enus are strong, they are not so strong that they are stronger than damage dealing classes.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2011-12-11
posté January 31, 2014, 20:21:14 | #53

Quote (XjumperX @ 31 January 2014 11:42) *
Being able to hit the cap easier is not a real advantage. That's like putting in a dmg cap that all classes can achieve and then saying dmg classes with +150% dmg or w/e can hit the cap easier so they have an advantage. There are plenty of high lvl sets that allow you to hit 150pp and still do high dmg. Yes, there's a lack of air pp sets but that's a different discussion altogether.

A single item drop - and forgive me, Commander Jumper - is a curiosity. A wonder, even. But thousands of drops - isn't that becoming... an Advantage? And won't we be judged by how we treat this Class?

Now, tell me, Commander Jumper, what is an Enutrof?
What is it?
Is it? Are you sure?
You see, it's met two of your three criteria for an advantage, so what if it meets the third, in even the smallest degree? What is it then? I don't know. Do you?
Looks at Kouromaro: Do you?

Do you? Well, that's the question you have to answer.


This post has been edited by Gynrei - January 31, 2014, 20:21:41.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2012-04-13
posté January 31, 2014, 21:03:01 | #54

Quote (Gynrei @ 31 January 2014 20:21) *
I don't know. Do you?
Looks at Kouromaro: Do you?

Do you? Well, that's the question you have to answer.

Nope, I don't have any idea what you're talking about either. Does anyone know what you're talking about? I doubt it




-Commander Jumper


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 01, 2014, 01:08:23 | #55

Quote (Kouromaro @ 31 January 2014 16:50) *

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 31 January 2014 12:59) *

Quote
And at the italic text: What the ...? Seriously?
What are you having trouble understanding?
While Enus are strong, they are not so strong that they are stronger than damage dealing classes.
Have you never grouped with an earth enutrof? They ARE a damage dealing class.


Scary Polter * Member Since 2011-08-28
posté February 01, 2014, 03:13:41 | #56

Quote (Merriden @ 28 January 2014 06:18) *

Quote (tashlol @ 28 January 2014 04:55) *
Tashlol is the name I have chosen to be known as on these forums, so please call me by it

I edited my post because at first I called you Nova.

Tash thinks that he/she is the forum police, so please let him live in his/her fantasy world, just don't mind it.




As the topic says, I wouldn't mind if the pp cap goes up, but I am also up for fair chances to drop items for all classes as well.


Quote (Gynrei @ 28 January 2014 15:55) *
This is the problem Ankama runs into time and again by changing the basic mechanics of a game well after release. Bringing Enu's and the rest of the classes closer in terms of drop chance was the right move. Unfortunately, Enu's have had this advantage for so freakin long it will always feel like a massive nerf. Not revamping the loot system at the same time was also a d*** move.

Ankama can't remove the PP cap now without making large changes to the game. Two challenges could net you like 200pp, add in candy and combined with a 400pp Enu that is very very high. I don't want to see 6 Enu's in a party ever again.

To answer the OP, No, don't raise the PP cap, especially not just for Enu's.

Improve the loot system instead.

Also, remove the dodge cap on Masq's. Why on earth Ankama decided to slap Masq's in the face I'll never know.

This.


Scary Polter * Member Since 2011-04-26
posté February 01, 2014, 03:20:46 | #57

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 01 February 2014 01:08) *

Quote (Kouromaro @ 31 January 2014 16:50) *

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 31 January 2014 12:59) *

Quote
And at the italic text: What the ...? Seriously?
What are you having trouble understanding?
While Enus are strong, they are not so strong that they are stronger than damage dealing classes.
Have you never grouped with an earth enutrof? They ARE a damage dealing class.
Do you realize I have both water and earth enu? :|


Quote (Gynrei @ 31 January 2014 20:21) *
Now, tell me, Commander Jumper, what is an Enutrof?
What is it?
Is it? Are you sure?
You see, it's met two of your three criteria for an advantage, so what if it meets the third, in even the smallest degree? What is it then? I don't know. Do you?
Looks at Kouromaro: Do you?

Do you? Well, that's the question you have to answer.


I honestly don't understand what you are saying either... Please clarify and I will give you my thoughts.
A bit that might satisfy you right now:

My concern with Enutrof in this discussion mainly involves the concept of it ever since Enu was released. A class having advantage in obtaining items, (greedy in nature too).
For that what I am suggesting is making Enu less a dd class and more a treasure hunter classes.
As for what I define treasure hunters: Excel at getting items. However whether or not they can survive the battle to keep the item is a different story. Typically dealing less damage than other classes.

Also, Gynrei and Jumper, if you could weaken the tension a little bit. From what I read you two know a lot about the game and your points are all legit. Only your personal ideology about Enus is different.


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 01, 2014, 03:36:14 | #58

Quote (Kouromaro @ 01 February 2014 03:20) *
Do you realize I have both water and earth enu? :|
So you know how incredibly strong earth enus are?


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - February 01, 2014, 03:36:28.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-01-23
posté February 01, 2014, 03:40:13 | #59
An earth Enu's damage output is stupid strong. I choose to believe the water/earth enu talking here doesn't have a geared one.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2012-10-15
posté February 01, 2014, 06:25:18 | #60

Quote (Kouromaro @ 01 February 2014 03:20) *

My concern with Enutrof in this discussion mainly involves the concept of it ever since Enu was released. A class having advantage in obtaining items, (greedy in nature too).
For that what I am suggesting is making Enu less a dd class and more a treasure hunter classes.
As for what I define treasure hunters: Excel at getting items. However whether or not they can survive the battle to keep the item is a different story. Typically dealing less damage than other classes.

So you want to turn them into a bad class that is given a better chance at more drops out of pity compensation.


I'm sorry, but no class deserves that kind of punishment whatsoever.