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Which classes need love and which need some nerfs.
Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2009-08-07
posté April 14, 2012, 03:12:48 | #1
Which classes need love and which need some nerfs. Id like to start a discussion about class balance.
My thoughts are like this:

Classes that need to get some buffs or rework:
-Sadi (low HP of dolls, other dolls than Water one pretty much useless - weird AI of dolls, low dmg on spells)
-Dragon form Osa (just low dmg cannot be compared with any other build)
-Sram (they do such low dmg compared to others, and their mechanics are just fail mostly)
-Eca (ok ppl can say "I saw Eca hit for 1000" sure cause Eca can do that with god eca + crit + double dmg all in or 6 rolled with dice - it mens extreme luck)

I'll focus on Eca now cause I am playing one and i can tell a lot about gameplay.
Eca should be a gambler class - like u risk alot and u will have supercool award.
That's why i love DoQ skill - it just fits. But there is passive skill like spawning AI controlled bow meow that is just crap. Or Ecaflip Die - sure cool but u cannot move etc and it gives u chance to heal or actually die in case of today lvl of dmg that can be done.
Next thing is tarot card system. Its just ridiculous that when u got God Eca with
Ouginak it leaves u with 1 hp - u just die if u get hit or draw Meowtyrdom or AI Kittykaze hitting you. And i must say that it happens a lot more often than opposite Ouginak with God Eca - which bonus is just a fail u must be like Jesus playing with you lucky to draw this combo when you are low on HP and get ressurected (not even with full HP but with half of it). Next thing is Paws off it works just awful and is useful ounce in a blue moon when u don't
have enough AP to make a Leap. Flealine Army just don't work well with today's single element system. When u put your pts into this u will get a chance to do silly DMG and get silly heal.

Eca is just useless because of couple reasons:

Superlow dmg even with best AP combo u will make much more less DMG than others
Too low heals which can be overdone by any attacks (and huge heal every 3 turns - but that isn't enough for survival)
Only decent dmg skill is 1square range melee skill.

Eca is way better but:
You are only single target and if u don't have enough luck u will do dmg like 150 turn to single target at lvl 100 char. There isn't anything about gambling in Eca cause when u DO have luck u are able to do as much dmg as the other when they don't need to have any luck.

When u get some strange combo like God Eca + high WS + crit + dmg bonus from tarot
u can hit like 900 and when doq like 1500 BUT u have like 0,2% to do that.

Eca should be gambler for me it means he should be able to do decet damage and have chance to give some more or get some great stats etc. Now its just like: u have 50% to do normal damage All in *2 its round 400, and then next 50% to do like 700 but when u fail u do just 200

And when there isnt a double damage on All in and u decide to DoQ you do silly damage 250 tops and u have chance (50%) to do 0 damage to the mob.

JUST GIVE ECA SOME LOVE!

Now classes that should be nerfed IMHO:
Fecas
Xelors
All Cras
Iop


Short Strich * Member Since 2010-09-11
posté April 14, 2012, 06:57:28 | #2
fire iop too? ==" why?


posté April 14, 2012, 13:02:09 | #3
Okay. I can give some thoughts about Srams.

You already pointed out the main issue. Srams damage output is way too low. As far as I know, we're the only class with 0 ranged spells(guile doesn't count) and 0 AoE spells. We are also a class that is very very dependent on a lot of stats. A Sram needs Dodge, Perception and MP. There is just no way to effectively play an invisible Sram without high Dodge, high Perception and high MP. This means, unlike many other classes, boosting elemental damages with stat points is not an option. It also means that finding equipment is very hard. Considering all this, one would think we would be granted some high single target damage from behind. But no...

As for spells, I can only give my opinion on Water spells and Air spells. I play a water sram, and have some basic knowledge about the air sram.

A Water Srams main spell is Petty Theft. At level 100 it does 68 (100) damage and steals 1(2) AP from behind. This is a pretty good spell, provided you can get it to a decent critical hit rate. Although, it is 1/turn which means it has to be combined with a second water spell.

If you want to be able to reach 40ish % crit rate(which you will, unless you plan on dealing 350 damage per turn to a single target at level 100 with all spells maxed), you will only have 7 ap as a Water Sram. This means, the spells you will be combing with Petty Theft are Bloody Ripoff on non crits and Kleptosram on crits. These two spells do pretty low damage. 38(57) for 3 ap on Ripoff and 53(76) for 4 ap on Kleptosram.

Your damage output (calculating on 50% crit rate) will be
0.25*(100+76) + 0.25*(100+53) + 0.25*(68+57) + 0.25*(68+38) = 140 base damage per turn.

Which is 20 damage per ap. Compare that to an Iop of any kind, and you'll see that we won't even be close. Especially not since we will also have lower elemental damage bonus.

Water Srams could be buffed in a lot of ways. One would be to increase the steals of each spell. 75% (100%) on bloody ripoff, 30 (40) on Swindlesram, 60(80) on Kleptosram, 2(3) on both Shramshackle and Petty Theft. That way, the steals would actually make a difference. They would actually be a problem for the enemy.

And Air... Well, They have Trauma and Forceful Blow. Forceful Blow buffs your Shadowy Cloak and does +30% damage from behind. That 30% damage will mean 10 more damage. TEN!!. It doesn't mean anything at that level. I'd suggest making that a 30% boost to the base damage instead. Making the spell do 45 base damage from behind.

The extra effect of Trauma is even more crap. It triggers Shadowy Cloak and deals 1 hp (fixed) for every 3 levels of shadowy cloak. The problem here is that each level of Shadowy Cloak gives 1% damage. 3 levels = 3% damage. 3% damage is a boost of 2.5... So the spell would actually be better if it didn't have the extra trigger effect. Now, you will deal 33 more damage at one turn, and 85 damage less every turn after that. As well as having 20 less dodge, 20 less crit % and 1 less MP. It basically makes the spell shit. I suggest either removing the trigger effect which would make Trauma a pretty good spell, or changing the trigger into plain simple bonus damage which would make it a great spell.

Another possible change to Srams would be to make Master Stabber a 100% buff from behind instead of 40%. And keep everything else as it is (Well, maybe not Trauma because that spell is just broken).

Make all sram spells have higher(a lot higher) base damage from behind, base damage like today from the side, and lower base damage from the front.

Make the double inherit passive abilities such as master stabber, shadow mastery and reflex?

Make Shadow Trap actually permabuff your perception instead of the 1 turn buff. As the spell is now, it can't be used. At best, you buy yourself one more invisible turn for 2 ap. 2 Ap that's most likely better spent elsewhere. And that's not to mention the points you need to max the trap in the first place.

I'm not saying Ankama should be making all of my suggested changes. But some of them are worth considering.


Scary Polter * Member Since 2012-02-03
posté April 14, 2012, 13:41:17 | #4
Fire Eni needs a buff. I have 50lvl one, I had great plans for her but then I saw what high level water Eni can do. Fire Eni is totally outclassed by Water one in terms of damage, tankyness, heals, range. Water Eni is even a lot easier to play.
It's sad, because Fire Eni is very fun to play. You can do a lot more than spaming attacks and waiting until mob dies.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2011-09-13
posté April 14, 2012, 13:53:22 | #5
Sadida is useless now , dolls hit low damage , the AI sucks many times the dolls didn't attack monster near them and try to move... The dolls die with 1 hit or 2 . 4/5 water spells is useless, same air... Low damage and low effect . Nettled is bugged, with this buff the dolls take mp ap and damage, but if they use first Nettling attack they lost ap and mp .... and this always happens!!! ....


Short Strich * Member Since 2010-09-04
posté April 14, 2012, 14:50:04 | #6

Quote (Rotharie @ 14 April 2012 03:12) *
Next thing is tarot card system. Its just ridiculous that when u got God Eca with
Ouginak it leaves u with 1 hp - u just die if u get hit or draw Meowtyrdom or AI Kittykaze hitting you. And i must say that it happens a lot more often than opposite Ouginak with God Eca - which bonus is just a fail u must be like Jesus playing with you lucky to draw this combo when you are low on HP and get ressurected (not even with full HP but with half of it).

Ecaflips damage doesn't need a buff. It's decent - super powerful.
The only problem I can see with Ecaflip's Tarot is that lvling this passive won't really help.
Because if you get that skill it's all just about:
Will I get God Ouginak -> God Ecaflip Combo and die
or will I get God Ouginak -> God Ecaflip Combo and get a 2nd life

I don't really care about bad cards, all I care about is Ouginak->Ecaflip.
If you get Ouginak alot and have a high chance for a good card this can increase your chance of pulling that combo that kills you everytime.
So lvling that skill should actually decrease the chance that you can pull Ouginak and Ecaflip in that order instead of just increasing a chance for "good" cards. God Ecaflip is a good card but it kills you more than others. So I actually don't want a higher chance of pulling God Ecaflip. If I lvl that skill higher than 1 I am a masochist who wants to die more often than before.

If I'm not mistaken there are 4 "good" cards including God Ecaflip card.
If your chance of picking a good card is 50%
and you just pulled Ouginak your chance to die is at 12.5%.
So Lvl. 20 Ecaflip's Tarot lets you die every 8th time you pull Ouginak.
If your chance of picking a good card is 40%
and you just pulled Ouginak your chance to die is at 10%.
So Lvl. 1 Ecaflip's Tarot lets you die every 10th time you pull Ouginak.

There is no reason to lvl up that skill to 20 since God Ecaflip is always +3 AP, Ficke Dice is always +1 - +100% dmg which are the best Cards to pull in my opinion.


This post has been edited by Kyusan - April 14, 2012, 22:26:38.
posté April 14, 2012, 19:01:13 | #7
And regarding Eca's cards. They are Sram killers. Eca draw heal card -> Sram is royally fucked.


Narcissistic Larva * Member Since 2006-06-09
posté April 15, 2012, 00:41:05 | #8
Can you please tell me why xelors need a NERF?


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2009-08-07
posté April 15, 2012, 12:39:26 | #9

Quote (dovusplaier @ 15 April 2012 00:41) *
Can you please tell me why xelors need a NERF?
Sure i can.

Too much mobility/self buffs /aoes with too high ratios.
+infinite AP stack temporal burn


And + Eca heal vs sram lawl without that eca have 0 chance vs sram.


This post has been edited by Rotharie - April 15, 2012, 12:40:27.
Short Strich * Member Since 2005-12-04
posté April 15, 2012, 13:22:08 | #10
My point of view after 80 levels on main char, 20-30 on other 3 alts and lot of grouping (especially last week on monk island):

Eni (my class)
-water: good dps, for now bit one trick pony - hope invigorating word gets fixed because as for now bugged as hell, problems are mandatory 8AP which with current in game equip means you have to use ring of satisfaction (or if you are super rich dragolyre) till lev 100 and therefore crippling your other stats. Also +range and +MP is necessary because your mobility and range sucks big time.
Overall it seems balanced to me.

- fire, air: no synergy with your passive skills (except for exploding mark) IMHO neither is usable as main branch.
Both need rewamp/boost

Cra
- air - most OP class in game (no surprise here), amazing passives combined with best aoe ranged dps skill in game and ultimate mobility via beaconhopping - whoever was balancig this was suffering from 150% Merry status.
Massive nerf needed.
- fire - strong ranged aoe class - almost balanced, but mobility and some passive skills are even with this build borderline OP
- earth - no idea - did not played with one

Sacri
- air - after last nerfage pretty much unplayable as main tree, nice utility for other branches only
Either DPS boost needed or rewamp of the skills.
- fire - nice dps, but self dmg is painfull - no idea about overall ballance
- earth - tank with really bad dps - prolly needs boost in that department

Panda
- nice synergies, good dmg - hate automatic negative status after 100lvl of Merry - should be changed IMHO, because it is reachable quite soon and is crippling in longer fights
- fire/water - no idea here

Xelor
- air - pure support tree - if air sacr is not really playeble now by itself, air xelor is not existing as standalone class
- water - another group oriented support build
- fire - very nice dps borderline OP with lot of AP - compensated by bad range. Very good, but not amazing mobility (limited to small area and predictable, also crippeled by field manipulation, dial destruction).

Feca

There is some (hopefully not intended) way to get +30AP/MP via teleporting on glypths - and when you give this to Air Cra no fight takes longer then 1 round...

tldr: only really OP class I see is Air Cra, rest needs tweaks here and there to be fine IMHO


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2009-08-07
posté April 15, 2012, 13:33:48 | #11
I guess all aoe spells need tweaks in wakfu - thats the point.

Too powerful aoe spells.


Short Strich * Member Since 2010-09-11
posté April 15, 2012, 15:42:50 | #12

Quote (Brutusb @ 15 April 2012 13:22) *

Sacri
- fire - nice dps, but self dmg is painfull - no idea about overall ballance

Fire Sac lv 65 myself, ya self dmg really pain in .... (it increase as main dmg increase) only cri help to decrease this self dmg abit but more importantly I just want only Punishment change abit....(use AP 5,mp1, 1Wp and lost hp and need to has hp% lower than enemy to have its full power......(but best dmg of it only 10 more dmg than Smasher.....


atleast add more effect to punishment (explosive effect like Iop warth or something similar...) or just lower cost of spell....

Note : sorry for my bad english

but Fire Iop really need to nerf? since their skill cant add more range from ability or equipment...(and Iop warth use Wp too)


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2009-08-07
posté April 15, 2012, 16:37:51 | #13

Quote (bigliarz @ 15 April 2012 15:42) *
but Fire Iop really need to nerf? since their skill cant add more range from ability or equipment...(and Iop warth use Wp too)

Ok but wrath can hit like 700 around Iop.


Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2008-01-09
posté April 15, 2012, 16:45:42 | #14
Yeah, but that's the point of Iop, dealing the biggest dmg from all the classes. Big dmg and nothing else. Iops are fine now I guess...


posté April 15, 2012, 16:56:50 | #15
Iops whole point is to deal lots of dmg. They have to be in your face for it, and it always has some drawback like using WP, or can hit your allies, or only against one enemy. Iops are of the most balanced classes.

Before making threads like these lets see how pvp is after the cra nerf and new classes become more viable.


Also, I think in PvP the person with the first move should deal 20% less damage for that turn in order to better balance the advantage of initiative. Going first is a part of what makes cra so powerfull because their advantage is doubled when they dont need to run up to you.

In other mmo's a melee class, while at a disadvantage against range, will always have some teleport or charge that brings them instantly to melee range. In wakfu (and dofus) there is no suchthing, some melee classes dont even have a long range charge (Iop, Ecaflip, sram). This is a serious balance issue, especially when cras have retreat arrow and other ways of easly getting away.


Eccentric Moogrr * Member Since 2009-08-07
posté April 15, 2012, 17:25:07 | #16

Quote (dwiguitarplayer @ 15 April 2012 16:56) *
Before making threads like these lets see how pvp is after the cra nerf and new classes become more viable.

If they do any...


posté April 15, 2012, 19:00:39 | #17
I think the Iop is pretty balanced, but there are some things I think they could change.

I was in the beta a few years ago and there were some nice things the Air Iop could do.

Changes I would like to see for Air Iop
- Gutting Gust should get its Aoe back (3 cells across)
- The Aerial buff on Flurry should be slightly increased so that Flurry + Air skills dmg >= 3x Jabs
- Jabs should get some sort of status effect (I'm thinking either Confusion or Dizzy)
- Intimidation should get 1-3 range

Fire Iop is quite balanced but the damage on Iop's Wrath is a bit high.

Changes to Fire Iop
- Reduce Iop's wrath damage slightly and decrease chance of Explosion

Earth Iop needs some similar utility changes to the Air Iop.

Changes to Earth Iop I would like to see
- Status effect on Shaker (Stabilize would be nice)
- Status effect on Devastate changed to - Dodge instead of Bound (I don't really see the point of having Bound on a close range melee skill that can only be fired once per turn. On Impact it makes sense because you can - MP and close distance, but for Devastate it does not. Much better would be the ability to decrease dodge and lock down surrounding enemies)


There are also some issues with support spells

- Remove the 1 Wakfu point cost for Jump. All Iop except Earth need Wakfu points to fire skills and in longer fights this skill becomes useless.
- Reduce cost of Flatten as it levels. At 9/9 Flatten still costs 4AP and 2MP.
- Defensive stance should have a passive +resist component.
- Bravery standards AOE is too small. Very rarely will allies be close enough to benefit.



As far as other classes go.

I think Sram needs a damage buff.
I also think Eca needs their damage normalized (less randomness) and the Ouginak + God of Ecaflip combo should be removed/changed. Water eca also need more damage and less heal (50% base damage increase and 50% heal reduction)


posté April 15, 2012, 21:51:02 | #18
Only Cras need nerf. Either remove those teleportation skills or decrease its dmg and range but im no expert on it, I just see the huge ammount of dmg and range they have. (Lol seen a level 60 air cra do 400 dmg x 2 to 4 monsters in a single turn, also pvped one with a group of friends. 5 level 55s vs 1 level 67 Cra, we all died in about 3 turns. Even the sram that was invisiable got hit lol)

All the other classes need balancing between elements if that.
Especially Enis... They should either heal or dmg. Now healing that also damage is dumb. Force them to go hybrid if they want dmg, I only met 1 Eni that wasn't a healer. its pretty dumb lol

I can tell you this though, Xelors dont have enough teleportation space since at higher levels everyone has equips that gives them extra ap/mp or long range/ aoe spells. So no, the Xelors are fine as it is. Woulden't hurt to increase the mobility or dmg of air xelor, everyone goes either fire or water...and temporal burn isnt OP but that's another topic :/

Srams could really use an AOE spell, even if its one which isn't too good or at least a ranged attack.

I cant tell if Ecas are UP or OP... how about some balance between that luck...?


Featherless Piwi * Member Since 2009-01-22
posté April 15, 2012, 22:29:54 | #19

Quote (Kurochikun @ 15 April 2012 21:51) *
Only Cras need nerf. Either remove those teleportation skills or decrease its dmg and range
Agree. Ranger with teleportation, ROTFL. Only once per fight, or rework this spell. And this is not all. Cra air has tons of damage, and can immobilize their enemies with riddling. But cra is not op like sram on beta. This is actually gamebreaker, and when i compares other 11 class to cra... It sad, but true. They are useless.


posté April 16, 2012, 01:38:14 | #20

Quote (Rotharie @ 15 April 2012 12:39) *

Quote (dovusplaier @ 15 April 2012 00:41) *
Can you please tell me why xelors need a NERF?
Sure i can.

Too much mobility/self buffs /aoes with too high ratios.
+infinite AP stack temporal burn


And + Eca heal vs sram lawl without that eca have 0 chance vs sram.

I wasn't talking about Eca VS Sram. I was talking about Eca in the same team as a Sram.