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Ankama stop nerfing us
Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2010-12-10
posté February 05, 2014, 04:24:34 | #1
Ankama stop nerfing us I don't like to use the forums, but I'm a veteran on Remington since beta days, I saw many classes getting nerfed, no problem, my feca was nerfed: ok, let's play, my mask was nerfed: ok, my rogue was nerfed: ok. But now what is the problem? why they need to nerf a class that is already nerfed before? I don't get it, plus they didn't told us anything, Piercing Shot will get a monstruous nerf, if you're gone nerf the % resistance ignore, you should at least increase the spell damage, it is not that high


Grizzled Dandelion * Member Since 2012-01-17
posté February 05, 2014, 10:08:50 | #2

Quote (DashH @ 05 February 2014 04:24) *
I don't like to use the forums, but I'm a veteran on Remington since beta days, I saw many classes getting nerfed, no problem, my feca was nerfed: ok, let's play, my mask was nerfed: ok, my rogue was nerfed: ok. But now what is the problem? why they need to nerf a class that is already nerfed before? I don't get it, plus they didn't told us anything, Piercing Shot will get a monstruous nerf, if you're gone nerf the % resistance ignore, you should at least increase the spell damage, it is not that high
I can understand the piercing shot nerf since it's quite large, but it does suck as it's the main spell of Earth.

The Fire Wall nerf, however, is ridiculous. 3 procs per turn? Way to neuter an entire branch. This was completely the wrong way to go about it. I'll admit that Fire Wall is strong, but this is way too hard of a hit. How about reducing/removing the damage that Fire Wall receives from your level? That shouldn't have been put in there in the first place. I can't tell you how many level 140 Rogues I've seen that are Air/Earth who have specc'd into Bomb Master and still clear entire dungeons like they're pure Fire. If you took out the damage that scales by level, then they wouldn't be able to abuse its power without sacrificing damage from their other elements. I mean, you don't see a pure Air Eni healing for 500+ per turn with her level 5 Water spells,do you? No, because you have to spec into the spells for them to be effective.

The point is, when you put a cap on how many times the wall can proc, you're putting a finite number of damage for them per turn. If you were to, for instance, reduce the damage of the bombs themselves or remove the scaling-off-of-level business, you'd be effectively reducing the damage without capping it off. There's still potential for great synergy with other party members and for the rest of the Rogue's kit.


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 05, 2014, 11:30:36 | #3
It doesn't matter if you've been nerfed in the past. Every class has, and you cant use this as a defense if a mechanic is clearly over powered.
I dont get why youre more okay with feca / mask nerfs compared to rogues.

Sorry to break it to you, but you cant have the best damage and best aoe. (firewall yo) I think I agree with toasty, damage based on the bomb level (+firewall dmg nerf) would make more sense, the explosion damage doesn't make a fire rogue op, its the firewall damage and with your crazy initiative to damage boost its very easy to multi element.
If the fire wall procs were to be slightly altered, I would suggest 3 per wall.
Or a system which gives the firewall a set of charges based on the ap used to create it. Charges would be lost whenever it was proc'ed with no limit per mob.

(I've said this in another thread) Piercing shot continued to scale up to a possible -200% res at level 200 when they released lvl 200 spells. From memory, no other classes got this treatment, instead they had their lvl 100 effect moved to lvl 200. This is a very late nerf, rogues are lucky they kept it for so long.

I'm not 'against' the nerf, but I'd rather they buff underpowered classes.


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - February 05, 2014, 13:22:06.
Lord Madgobb * Member Since 2010-12-04
posté February 05, 2014, 16:11:21 | #4

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 05 February 2014 11:30) *
It doesn't matter if you've been nerfed in the past. Every class has, and you cant use this as a defense if a mechanic is clearly over powered.
I dont get why youre more okay with feca / mask nerfs compared to rogues.

Sorry to break it to you, but you cant have the best damage and best aoe. (firewall yo) I think I agree with toasty, damage based on the bomb level (+firewall dmg nerf) would make more sense, the explosion damage doesn't make a fire rogue op, its the firewall damage and with your crazy initiative to damage boost its very easy to multi element.
If the fire wall procs were to be slightly altered, I would suggest 3 per wall.
Or a system which gives the firewall a set of charges based on the ap used to create it. Charges would be lost whenever it was proc'ed with no limit per mob.

(I've said this in another thread) Piercing shot continued to scale up to a possible -200% res at level 200 when they released lvl 200 spells. From memory, no other classes got this treatment, instead they had their lvl 100 effect moved to lvl 200. This is a very late nerf, rogues are lucky they kept it for so long.

I'm not 'against' the nerf, but I'd rather they buff underpowered classes.

I agree with most of this.

Reducing the base dmg of Firewall wouldn't change much in how effectively Rogues clear dungeons with Firewall. You just add more Rogues to your team. Problem solved. So a restriction on the number of activation's seems like a very reasonable solution.

It means solo Rogues still do a considerable amount of damage but can't abuse the Firewall by adding more Rogues or using team mates that push and pull targets around until they die.

I'd consider removing the 3 procs and instead let mobs get hit as many times as they can during their own movement phase only. I'm not sure if it's a better solution or not. In some situations it probably helps, others not as much. But i agree with limiting Rogue heavy teams. Ankama nerfed Eni's by not allowing teams of Eni's to out heal every mob in game. This feels the same.


This post has been edited by Gynrei - February 05, 2014, 16:12:29.
Bellaphone Lover * Member Since 2013-02-06
posté February 05, 2014, 16:11:53 | #5
Hate to see classes getting nerfed but watching firewall eat up every mob on the map because of lousy AI is crazy. Hopefully they find the right balance without destroying the branch.


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2010-12-10
posté February 05, 2014, 17:48:58 | #6
What I most hate is that it was revamped before, every time ankama does not like a class, they change it, we pay for this, this is not beta anymore, they change things whitout any info, it sucks


Ambitious Crackapult * Member Since 2013-02-17
posté February 05, 2014, 19:55:03 | #7



Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-10-31
posté February 05, 2014, 20:09:51 | #8

Quote (Celay01 @ 05 February 2014 19:55) *
Wrong. Last pic should have 2 sporks!


This post has been edited by Ippy - February 05, 2014, 20:10:59.
Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-02-28
posté February 05, 2014, 20:48:01 | #9
They can't, simply can't. They have not the inteligence to make one class balanced. They have to launch the class as the best in game, people buy 1 year of sub then they nerf it to absolute crap. This is a fact


Community Manager * Member Since 2013-07-08
posté February 05, 2014, 20:55:55 | #10
Thank you for the feedback guys, even if there is a lot of unhappiness, I will definitely also use this image for my report to illustrate your reactions.

I also agree that there is still a need to get the information earlier when it comes to changes on classes or big features.

As you have noticed already, we were also not able to provide you with a letter to the community, as we had first hoped to be able to post one every month, unfortunately all the necessary conditions didn't get together as planned.

We still do not have a date to share on this letter and the planning for the whole year, as we prefer to announce a date when we are certain of it, and not when we risk to change it, which would only bring frustration and disappointment.

Regarding the recent Rogue change shared in the February changelog, please make sure to check out this post as well: Here and share your opinion on that thread, so that we can keep all the February update feedback in that thread as much as possible.


Speechless Crobak * Member Since 2009-10-10
posté February 05, 2014, 21:21:39 | #11
Useful Earth spells:

Piercing Shot
Pulsar

Downsides to these spells:
LINEAR
MINIMUM RANGE
REQUIRE LINE OF SIGHT
5+ AP TO BE USEFUL

Unless you build a 12ap Rogue, your damage is cut in half immediately after a monster walks up to you as it costs a MINIMUM of 2ap to unlock yourself. If you happen to have an ally close by, you can escape with Roguery. But wait! If you have high air damage, you'll deal quite a bit of damage to them. But wait! If you crit, you cause the debuff to them as well and screw them over. On top of that, that's at least 3-4 mp loss to Pulsar's damage you can do. Which by the way, causes your turn to end immediately.

If you want to instate this nerf, you should allow Rogues to cast Piercing Shot at a minimum Range of 1 instead of 2.

I'm not even going to mention the other 3 Earth spells because they serve no purpose. I don't even have them hotkeyed because they're useless.

Reducing procs for firewall neuters the branch. If they allowed you to kick bombs onto each other again to cause them to explode, FIRE WOULD BE FINE. But, in nerfing them as they currently are, the branch is pretty much shit.

Allowing Grou to instate such halfbaked changes is disgusting. In his own words, these changes were on the fly and haven't been completely thought through. It is not fair to the player base to continue making such decisions.
 


Quote (Celay01 @ 05 February 2014 19:55) *

this image pretty much sums up both Fire and Earth Branches of Rogue.


Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2012-07-03
posté February 05, 2014, 21:39:30 | #12

Quote (Celay01 @ 05 February 2014 19:55) *

there, i fixed it, dont thank.


Teethless Sharkie * Member Since 2012-10-31
posté February 05, 2014, 22:39:03 | #13

Quote (khackt @ 05 February 2014 21:39) *

Quote (Celay01 @ 05 February 2014 19:55) *

there, i fixed it, dont thank.
Lol'd


Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 05, 2014, 22:41:01 | #14

Quote
Wall of Flame: Will increase to 3 triggers per turn and per target. Damage will decrease from 54 to 44 (level 100) and 104 to 84 (level 200).
lolol
Am i reading this correctly? (will increase to..??) Firewall will only activate 3 times until rogues next turn now?
even spoons are strong than that


This post has been edited by Soundtrack8 - February 05, 2014, 22:41:32.
Happy Miliboowolf * Member Since 2011-02-28
posté February 05, 2014, 22:42:15 | #15

Quote (Soundtrack8 @ 05 February 2014 22:41) *

Quote
Wall of Flame: Will increase to 3 triggers per turn and per target. Damage will decrease from 54 to 44 (level 100) and 104 to 84 (level 200).
lolol
Am i reading this correctly? (will increase to..??) Firewall will only activate 3 times until rogues next turn now?
Looks like spoons are strong than that
I also saw that. I don't get it... Rogues have ILIMITED triggers, and they will increase to 3?

Even their description is wrong lol. There so many things that are wrong with this company...


This post has been edited by Sargent-Wiggest - February 05, 2014, 22:42:57.
Short Strich * Member Since 2011-04-16
posté February 06, 2014, 02:54:34 | #16
This is extremely disappointing, I have worked very hard in getting good equips just to see my overal damage go down significantly from this "last minute change". Looks like the fire branch has lost all use. Very poor direct damage and now poor indirect damage from firewall, and we can't even rely on bomb explosions because monsters move out of the Area of Effect before they explode. Good Job Ankama. Good Job. *sarcasm*


Soft Crackler * Member Since 2006-03-20
posté February 06, 2014, 03:43:27 | #17
I laughed a little before crying.

Granted 3 Rogues with 3 Firewalls was pretty awesome.. but seriously, there are better ways to combat this combination.

It's like my old Earth Enu.. I shall forever miss the previous Shovel Shaker + MP rape :\.


Ugly Gobball * Member Since 2012-02-29
posté February 06, 2014, 04:06:30 | #18
Very lame nerf for both trees. They could of done many things different with fire and bombs as others stated already but instead just make changes that ruin an entire build. Earth nerf hurts alot, but what else can I say this company is beyond hope.


Tofurby on Diet * Member Since 2013-10-21
posté February 06, 2014, 09:15:00 | #19
Just to put things into perspective of what this change can mean for fire rogues...

First Turn: Firewall change... You spend 10 ap to make a firewall that gives only 132 base damage total (assuming enemy takes 3 steps.)

Second Turn: If you decide throw a few more bombs and blow them up, you can amass (if all bombs hit) 307- 460 damage.

====================================================================


So in two turns it is possible with this new system to hit for about 439- 592 base damage. This equates to an average of 219-296 base damage a turn.

Realize 296 base damage a turn is ONLY if the enemy takes 3 steps into firewall, all 5 bombs explode adjacent to target, and every bomb throw is a hit.

Below shows the damage damage per turn. The formula I used to calculate the low and high damage is below as well. Each time a bomb is missing, I'm assuming the weakest bomb did not hit. This is more likely to occur because on second turn you can place megabomb and burning bomb in positions to hit the enemy as well as detonate them.
==============================================================

[(Blinding Bombs)*(3,2,1,0) + MegaBomb+ Burning Bom*(1,0)] /2

Ex. [(60*3) + (97) + 60)] / 2 = 153.5


If 5 Bombs Hit: Avg. Dam/Turn: 154 - 230
If 4 Bombs Hit: Avg Dam/Turn: 129 -192
If 3 Bombs Hit: Avg Dam/Turn: 104 - 155
If 2 Bombs Hit: Avg Dam/Turn: 157 - 118
If 1 Bombs Hit: Avg Dam/Turn: 97 - 145

What the above data says is that in two turns the maximum damage you can get in optimum conditions is 460 damage from bombs exploding (or an average of 230 base damage a turn). If you include the number of steps the enemy took on firewall you can deal max 592 damage in 2 turns or 296 average damage per turn.
================================================================

To put into perspective - A fire iop need only crit 3 times to deal 370 base damage per turn. Whereas a fire rogue needs to crit 5 times, have the enemy walk 3 steps (into firewall) in a position where all 5 bombs can explode and STILL deals WAY less damage per turn than a fire iop.

I'm not saying to nerf Fire Iops... They're fine as they are. In perspective, this nerf is WAYYYYY to steep. ESPECIALLY considering that a fire rogue uses 20 ap (2 turns) to deal damage ranging from 97-230?!?

=================================================================
P.S. Though I'm generally good with math, just because I'm posting in a public forum it is likely that there are mistakes... If you see any obvious ones please point it out and I will correct it. Hopefully this can demonstrate how badly nerfed fire rogues will become...



This post has been edited by BlackClover - February 06, 2014, 09:20:23.
Nun Shall Pass * Member Since 2012-03-02
posté February 06, 2014, 10:51:40 | #20

Quote
First Turn: Firewall change... You spend 10 ap to make a firewall that gives only 132 base damage total (assuming enemy takes 3 steps.)
What level rogue are you basing this off (it seems like you tripled the new bomb explosion damage to calculate firewall damage)

You also have to remember, that in 1 turn they can get an aoe of 21 cells set up. I think 3 procs per enemy is reasonable, maybe procs from barbed wire shouldn't count? - but 3 per turn (Im still confused about the wording choice) is very harsh.